An Ceann Comhairle:   As two questions are being taken together, 12 minutes are allocated for them.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   I welcome back the Minister and thank him for his response. It is as if nothing has changed. The environment could be described as a new Angola there are that many landmines exploding throughout the country-----

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The Deputy's brother would know all about that.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   -----as a result of various actions or inactions by the Government parties on issues such as this.

I am mindful of the situation that has emanated from Clare County Council in the last day or two. It now appears to be the policy of local authorities to seek a tax clearance certificate or a household charge receipt when it comes to education grants. Is that something the Minister has ordered his Department to obtain from councils throughout the country and is it the case that we can expect a request for a receipt to be provided for the household charge in respect of all Government payments to be made into the future?

The Minister knows that councillor colleagues in his party earlier this year provided a budget for their constituents on the basis of central Government funding, which in itself had been decreased, on the basis of rate income, which had decreased, and on the basis of planning and development charges, which had decreased substantially. With great difficulty they saw fit to provide a group of services and facilities on their part as a local authority to the constituents they represent. There was ineptitude on the part of the Minister and his Department in terms of the manner in which the Minister devised a very poor system to collect the household charge-----

An Ceann Comhairle:   Has the Deputy a question?

Deputy Barry Cowen:   -----and he is now penalising them for something that is no fault of theirs but is the result of the incoherence of his Government.

To return to the bones of my question-----

An Ceann Comhairle:   Thank you.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   -----in light of developments in recent days, is it now policy that local authorities and the Departments which hand out funding to those in need will now seek a receipt for payment of the household charge before payments are made? Is that what we have got in terms of this incoherence? Is that where this will get us to? Has nothing changed? Are we to continue with this myriad of disasters one after another?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I wish to congratulate Deputy Cowen on his elevation to high office as Fianna Fáil spokesman for the environment and I wish him well. I hope what we have just heard will not be the way in which he will continue. He will be aware that the reason we have a household charge and a property tax is that it was negotiated by people, who would be well know to him in the Fianna Fáil Party, in November 2010. If we want to continue to have funding for our essential public services, we are obliged by the troika to meet those requirements of the EU and the IMF.

I thank the people of Ireland who have contributed to the almost 66% compliance in terms of the payment of the household charge in spite of provocation by people on the opposite side of the House and ill-informed people who advocated non-compliance with legislation. These are the people who fully understand that this is an essential part of the budget which was agreed earlier this year to deliver local services.

The reason for this charge is well known. It is an essential part of delivering local services. If one does not have money in terms of the budget, services have to be cut and that is what the councillors in the area have decided to do.

Clare County Council and its county management are doing no more and no less than any other county council or city manager. They are putting in place plans to get in the remaining moneys owed to them in respect of the household charge and any other moneys owed to them. That is what any business would do. Otherwise, they are faced with the difficult situation of cutting services. I have incentivised them to do so by saying to them that if they do not increase the level of compliance in terms of the payment of the household charge, then they cannot expect to provide the level of service. That is a matter for the people in the area and for the management in the county council area. Given that the Act states that this is the care of management of the local authorities, Clare County Council has decided to take on board the gathering of information on higher education grants. I understand it is working closely with the local government management agency on the protocols that allows it to do so.

I look forward to the same level of activity in whatever means is necessary to get an increased level of compliance on the payment of the household charge. Otherwise the people who are against the payment of this charge will have to explain why services are being cut.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   Students do not own the houses.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   An issue arising out of this is that two of the largest local authorities in the State have passed a motion requesting the Minister to overturn this measure. In the case of Dublin City Council, it was passed unanimously, which means that Government party councillors backed the motion. I bring to the Minister's attention also that when councillors sat down to pass their budgets last year and try to carve out as best they could the moneys available to them they were not notified that the local government grant was conditional on full collection of this payment. The Minister sought to implement it in the third quarter on the day we left this building for the recess. That was a cynical move on his part. It may seem to be a clever move, and many people might smile at it, but it was a cynical move on the day the Dáil went into recess.

I have asked about this matter previously, and I know it will come up under other questions about local government reform, because all we are seeing is services and money being taken away from local authorities. Local authorities are in crisis. The morale of councillors of all parties and none is very low. They cannot see where all of this is going. We have been trying to get information about it from the Minister here without any luck; he continues to give the same answers. The morale of local authority staff also is very low with the situation they are trying to deal with.

The Clare County Council situation has been mentioned. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, stated this morning that he expects other councils will follow suit in the future but that it will be on their own initiative. The question was asked, and I want to ask the Minister directly, if there is an initiative from his Department. Has he advised councils to do this? Has an instruction gone out to local authorities to use the payment of the household charge as a condition for processing third level grant applications or to slow down or speed up those applications? Has the Minister had any discussions with the Local Government Management Services Board on that matter?

Deputy Joe Higgins:   It is disgraceful bullying.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I am glad to tell Deputy Stanley that I have not issued any instruction to any local authority in regard to higher education grants, and I understand that moneys have not been withheld at this stage by Clare County Council in respect of higher education grants. I understand Clare County Council is in a position where it asked for a lot of information, not just about higher education, but issues relating to the payment of the non-principal private residence charge, water rates and commercial rates, as appropriate. It gathers information in that way. Clare County Council is doing the same as all local authorities, instructed by me, to ensure we get a higher compliance in terms of the household charge. Otherwise, they will be faced with the consequences of not having the same amount of money in their budget as they had at the earlier part of the year and having to cut their budgets. It is a matter for the local authority members and the management of the local authorities to decide to stay within their budgets. That is what one would expect any good and prudent management of a council to do. Deputy Stanley is the last man who should talk about compliance with an interim property tax like the household charge considering what his party is doing in another jurisdiction on the same island.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   The Minister mentioned "as instructed by me" so I take that as a "Yes" to Deputy Stanley's question. Can the Minister tell me if the Data Protection Commissioner has been consulted by his Department on foot of the actions of Clare County Council and, it appears, what we can expect from other councils into the future?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I have instructed all local authorities to collect the amount of money that is outstanding, and he would expect me to do that. He would be very familiar with the charge and the reason we have it. I have asked them to stay within their budget and use whatever means to do that. The Local Government Management Agency is in constant contact, as the agents who are dealing with this charge on behalf of local authorities, with the data protection systems and I am sure it has all of the necessary compliance requirements and protocols in place.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Has the Data Protection Commissioner been consulted?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   That is a matter for each local authority under the Act. They will discuss these issues with the Local Government Management Agency-----

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Is the Minister aware whether he has been consulted or not?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   No, I am not. I do not micro-manage local authorities.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   But the Minister is aware that-----

An Ceann Comhairle:   I call Deputy Ellis. We are out of time. Twelve minutes were spent on those two questions.

Pyrite Remediation Programme

 38. Deputy Dessie Ellis   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the position regarding the progress made on the implementation of the recommendations of the Pyrite report and any other work being undertaken to resolve the issue. [39326/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The pyrite report, which contains 24 interrelated recommendations covering a wide range of issues, provides a comprehensive framework to enable me and the other stakeholders to make progress towards providing solutions for homeowners. Implementation of many of the recommendations requires the involvement and co-operation of a number of stakeholders and other bodies. My Department and I will be working to achieve progress on implementation of these recommendations as quickly as possible. The report recommends engagement by those stakeholders in processes which will provide solutions for homeowners. My preferred approach to solutions for homeowners is for responsible stakeholders to take ownership of this problem and work with the Department to provide an industry-led solution thereto. I have already begun a consultation process with key stakeholders and have given them until the end of September to come back to me with credible solutions. In the absence of a voluntary approach in this regard, I will have to consider an imposed solution along the lines recommended in the report in relation to the imposition of a levy.

The National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, has begun working on the development of a testing protocol and a method statement for remediation work. I am hopeful this work will be completed quickly. The recently published draft building control amendment regulations provide for the introduction of mandatory certificates of compliance as recommended by the panel. My Department has had discussions with the Construction Industry Federation, CIF, in regard to the establishment of a registration process for builders and contractors.

Deputy Dessie Ellis:   I thank the Minister. It is nearly three months since the report was issued. It was a good report with many good recommendations, many of which concern levies on the building industry, the insurance bodies and other groups, such as the quarries. The levy would take a long time to build up if it came to fruition. One of the significant issues is the seriousness of the circumstances that obtain. It is estimated in the report that there are 12,000 homes affected. There is probably a lot more. They are generally private homes, not local authority homes and the others in question. There is a considerable number in addition.

I have a number of questions for the Minister on this matter. The CIF, the Irish Concrete Federation, Homebond and other stakeholders have been given until this month to respond. Have any of them done so with any idea on their contributing, helping out or, in some way, bailing out the people who are badly affected? Will legislation be required at any stage in regard to this? Will local authorities that are looking for funding to carry out remedial works be availed of through the fund? Will the money come from the fund or from local government funding? Before there can be further progress, we need central government funding to start the process. Does the Minister intend to put in place a Government fund of some description? It can be taken from the levies if these are imposed.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   Deputy Ellis realises that the State is not liable in this matter, and there is case law to show that. I do not know why the Government would be putting money into a system in respect of which it is not liable. We are facilitating a process to help homeowners who, through no fault of their own, have been put in a difficult position arising from the pyrite problem. In the report, it is estimated that 850 dwellings currently have a claim with a guaranteed provider and need remediation immediately. There are approximately 10,300 homes that are potentially exposed according to the panel's estimation. We are developing a test, through the NSAI, to ensure we will be in a position to identify the extent of the problem among the 10,300.

I have given the stakeholders until the end of the month to come back with proposals. I am prepared to wait until the end of the month to determine whether there will be any. However, I assure the Deputy I will be implementing a new set of proposals. If legislation is required, I will bring it forward as quickly as possible to ensure we will have funds from the industry to carry out remediation on the houses that need it urgently.

Deputy Dessie Ellis:   I thank the Minister for his response. Some 850 houses are significantly damaged. The situation is so serious that urgent attention is necessary. Will the Minister stick to his September deadline and impose on the relevant parts of the industry a mechanism to deal with the issue? If legislation is required, will it be backdated? I am worried that it will be argued that what happened occurred in the past whereas everything will be okay from this point onwards.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   If I had wanted to wash my hands of this problem, I would have done so a long time ago, as the State is not liable. Thanks to the panel's expertise, I have developed a set of recommendations that I am anxious to implement on behalf of home owners. I would like to believe that the stakeholders being consulted will be positive in their responses and will table proposals. I assure the Deputy that I am determined to help home owners by imposing a solution if one is not offered voluntarily.

Deputy Dessie Ellis:   What about legislation?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   We will need to consider that matter following the responses from the stakeholders.

Private Rented Accommodation

 39. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the legal obligations for landlords in Dublin City to maintain a high standard quality of their rental accommodation, to prevent overcrowding in their properties, to prevent the dereliction of their rented accommodation internally and externally, to replace and maintain appliances in their properties for their tenants and to manage waste and dumping; the legal avenues that exist for communities and residents in Dublin Central that are having difficulties with landlords who are not addressing these issues; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39327/12]

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Jan O'Sullivan):   Minimum standards for rental accommodation are prescribed in the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2008, made under section 18 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1992. These regulations were further amended by the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) (Amendment) Regulations 2009, which expanded the definition of "a proper state of structural repair" to allow for all aspects of the internal and external appearance of a dwelling to be taken into account for the purposes of the regulations. All landlords have a legal obligation to ensure that their rented properties comply with these regulations. Responsibility for enforcing the regulations rests with the relevant local authority, supported by a dedicated stream of funding allocated by my Department.

Article 12 of the regulations provides that each house must have access to suitable and adequate pest and vermin-proof refuse storage facilities. In addition, section 12 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, as amended by section 100 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, requires a landlord of a dwelling to provide receptacles suitable for the storage of refuse outside the dwelling except where the provision of such receptacles is not within the power or control of the landlord, as could arise, for example, where it is a function of a management company to provide such a service.

Following the enactment of the 2009 Act, local authorities have a strengthened, updated legislative and regulatory framework available to them that provides for the issuing of improvement notices and prohibition notices where landlords are in breach of their obligations under the regulations. Fines for continuing non-compliance with the regulations have also been significantly increased.

The issue of overcrowded houses is dealt with in Part IV of the Housing Act 1966. Under that Act, a housing authority may request information from the owner or occupier of a house such as will allow that authority to determine if a house can be deemed to be overcrowded, having regard to section 63 of the Act. The housing authority may serve notice on the owner of a house specifying the maximum number of persons that may occupy a house without causing overcrowding and, where the owner of a house is causing or permitting the house to be overcrowded, may require the owner to desist from causing or permitting such overcrowding within a period not exceeding 21 days. Any person who neglects or refuses to comply with these requirements is guilty of an offence.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan:   I wish to draw a matter to the Minister of State's attention. According to the 2011 census, more than 75% of households in north inner city Dublin were not owner occupied. Of those, approximately 70% were private rental accommodation, a significant number of which were not registered with the Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB.

There are responsible landlords. In the space of two months, however, I attended approximately eight community forum meetings in Dublin Central. The common denominator was the other kind of landlord, people who had a complete disregard for the communities in which their rental accommodation was located. They are a plague on the lives of other people living in those communities. There is overcrowding, the rubbish is unbelievable, there is serious anti-social behaviour and some of the houses are substandard.

The legislation requires one thing, but the reality is something different. We have met the local authority and the Garda, but their hands are tied because the legislation is not strong enough. Will the Minister of State's Department be the driving force to determine where the gaps lie and consider how to have joined-up thinking to allow for an interagency approach? The fire section would do one bit, the planning section would do another bit and the local authorities and Garda would do something else.

The landlords in question are disregarding the requests of the local authority and the Garda to meet.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan:  ] It is not working and something stronger is needed. Will the Minister of State address that point?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan:   There are significant powers so local authorities can take action with regard to both the improvement and prohibition notices. There are fines stipulated, with a maximum fine of €5,000 and €400 for each day of a continuing offence. It is probably the case that many local authorities do not take that kind of action but the powers exist.

The Private Residential Tenancies Board, PRTB, also has significant powers. We are aware of the need for some amendments in the area and we have published legislation to amend the law relating to the PRTB. We hope that will come to the Chamber in the near future and we welcome any proposals from Deputy O'Sullivan or others in that regard. I intend to bring some amendments to the published legislation, including one relating to deposit retention. Nevertheless, significant powers already exist, although we recognise the need to strengthen legislation. We will do so.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan:   The existing powers are not strong enough as they are not working on the ground. I acknowledge the work of Dublin City Council, whose representatives would argue that their hands are tied. We can see the consequences at meetings with residents.

I asked that waste could become the responsibility of a landlord, although the Minister of State indicated there would be no legislation introduced in that regard. It is currently impossible to go after 20 individual tenants, whereas if the landlord was responsible for all waste in a premises, it might bring about results. Another proposal might be the provision of a behaviour clause in a tenancy agreement, as there is with local authority tenants. I would like both of these ideas to be considered.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan:   I would be very happy to take on board any suggestions that could strengthen the rights of tenants. There are certain actions that local authorities can take, although I am not sure if there are interventions in every case. We will consider any suggestions coming from any side of the House when we debate the legislation in the near future.

Water Charges

 40. Deputy Barry Cowen   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the current timeframe for the introduction of water metering; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39118/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The programme for Government and the memorandum of understanding with the EU, the IMF and the ECB provide for the introduction of domestic water charges and the establishment of a State-owned water utility. The Government considers that charging for water based on usage is the fairest way and it has decided that water meters should be installed in households connected to public water supplies. International evidence has shown that where meters have been installed, significant reductions have been achieved in the level of consumption, and this is also borne out by the water savings achieved with metering in the group water sector.

The Government has also decided that Irish Water, a new State-owned water company to be established as an independent subsidiary within the Bord Gáis Éireann group, will be responsible for the metering programme. The Government has recently approved the preparation of legislation to assign the necessary powers to allow Irish Water to undertake the metering programme. The objective is to have the Bill enacted by the end of this year. Pending the enactment of the legislation, my Department will be working with the local authorities to progress aspects of the metering programme, including the carrying out of surveys of domestic connections, and the Department will also be progressing the tender documentation for elements of the meter infrastructure.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   A couple of questions emanate from the Minister's answer. The timeframe seems to have been amended because earlier this year - to great fanfare when the process was announced - the date for the installation of all the water meters was 2014. There was also an indication that 2,000 jobs would be created. Is the timeframe now in tatters? Today, Bord na Móna announced much restructuring and some job losses. I would like to know, in writing in the coming weeks if it is impossible today, why that organisation was overlooked in favour of Bord Gáis for the water metering process. The Minister has moved back from his initial commitment to have this done more quickly. Will he confirm that Bord Gáis is continuing to recruit personnel and how many have been recruited so far? For what purposes is this recruitment taking place? Will the 2,000 jobs be filled when there is nothing to do for half of the personnel?

Over the past number of years, some county councils have from their own resources begun a process of installing water meters not only in private estates, but in public authority estates.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Barry Cowen:  ] It is ironic to think those who showed this forward thinking are to be penalised by virtue of the local government charge in the same fashion as anybody else who did not have the foresight to do this in recent years, irrespective of what agreement or options may have been laid down with the troika with regard to funding being made available to the State.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   As the Deputy knows from the troika agreement, water charges are to be introduced in 2014. This is what the previous Government negotiated. Whether or not there are meters there will be water charges in 2014.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   We know it is an option.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The Deputy knows it is there. It is not a surprise.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   We know you made a commitment to the electorate you would overturn it, re-negotiate it and do everything with it. However, when it suits you it is a problem.

An Ceann Comhairle:   Through the Chair.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   We have abandoned our economic sovereignty thanks to the policies pursued by our predecessors and we are doing our best to sort it out. An independent assessment was carried out by PwC on behalf of the Department to establish which semi-State body would be appropriate and would have the necessary skills and expertise and two companies were considered, namely, Bord na Mona and Bord Gais Éireann. Its independent recommendation, which was subsequently approved by the Government, was that Bord Gais Éireann had the best synergy to deal with the issues because it was already involved in dealing with utility customers.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Will the Minister publish it?

An Ceann Comhairle:   Through the Chair.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   That is a separate question.

An Ceann Comhairle:   There is a time limit on this question.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   In addition to this, procurement documentation is being drawn up and it must be done in a way that is legal and according to EU tendering arrangements. Those who will obtain jobs are fitters, plumbers and people in the construction industry who were abandoned arising from the downturn.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   Fix the leaks in the State.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   We will do that also.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   It would be much better to do this than to waste money on meters.

An Ceann Comhairle:   Perhaps the Minister would reply to the Deputy's question.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I remind Deputies that people already pay water charges. People provide water supplies themselves, as do commercial people, and this is extending the principal to public supplies.

Deputy Clare Daly:   Every citizen pays for water.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   We all pay for water through our taxes.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   You do not want to pay for anything.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   I have a follow-on question on the fact that Bord Gais-----

Deputy Phil Hogan:   You do not want to pay for anything.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   When we buy goods in shops we pay for the shopkeeper's water charges also.

An Ceann Comhairle:   I ask the Deputy to please adhere to the rules of the House.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   It appears that Bord Gais is in the process of recruiting fitters and engineers but I have yet to learn when their work might commence and I do not know to what infrastructure they have access. Where stands the expertise in the local authorities to which the Minister so proudly states he can provide funding so they can provide services? He is taking one of the long-standing-----

An Ceann Comhairle:   A question please Deputy.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   -----facilities available to the electorate, namely, local authority water services. Where stands this expertise and local knowledge and these engineers in local authorities? How will they be employed in local authorities? Are they being asked to transfer to Bord Gais?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   Local authority staff work very closely with Bord Gais and in the coming seven years they will continue to do so through providing the infrastructure for rolling out the metering programme and in providing the water infrastructure to be laid down in the legislation to come before the House. This legislation will give Bord Gais the necessary powers with regard to arrangements with the Commission for Energy Regulation and the roll-out of the water metering programme. During these seven years the local authorities and Bord Gais will work out the systems they must put in place to deliver what is probably one of the largest public utility projects since the establishment of the ESB. The experience in local authorities will be used to good effect with regard to rolling out the programme.

Question No. 41 answered with Question No. 37.

Other Questions

An Ceann Comhairle:   For the benefit of Deputies six minutes are allowed for each question, two minutes for the Minister's reply and four minutes for supplementary questions with a limit of one minute per supplementary question and one minute for the Minister's reply to a supplementary question.

Proposed Legislation

 42. Deputy Michael Colreavy   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the progress that has been made on the road map to develop a Climate Change Bill; and the contact he has had with his counterparts in the Northern Assembly. [39073/12]

 44. Deputy Catherine Murphy   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   if he will give a commitment on the introduction of climate change legislation before the end of December 2012; if he will outline the intended role he envisages for the sub Committee on the Environment, Community and Local Government in helping to draft the heads of the proposed legislation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39039/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I propose to take Questions Nos. 42 and 44 together.

The programme for the development of a national climate policy and legislation, which I announced last January, is progressing on schedule.

In terms of key milestones, the public consultation has been completed. It attracted a very strong response, with in excess of 600 submissions being received. Details of the consultation response are available on the Department’s website, together with summary information on the overall outcome.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Phil Hogan:  ]  On the policy analysis element of the programme, the secretariat to the National Economic and Social Council has submitted its interim report to me. As indicated in the programme, I will release the report shortly and will then invite views from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht.

Looking ahead to the next stage of the programme, I will make the heads of a climate Bill available before the end of the year for consideration by both the Oireachtas committee and stakeholders.

As I stated previously, and clearly signalled, in the policy development programme, I foresee a central role for the joint committee in regard to the policy development process. I attach particular importance to input from the committee on the critical issue of coming to a clear national understanding on how to meet our binding EU and wider international emission reduction commitments as well as pursuing national objectives in a low carbon global economy. I look forward to receiving the committee's report on national climate policy development and appropriate legislation in June 2013.

As the climate policy development programme matures, I also look forward to sharing our experience and achievements with my counterparts in Northern Ireland in the context of ongoing bilateral engagement and exchanges on environment policy matters.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   The response from the Minister was confusing because earlier this year he said the heads of the Bill would be published this year. The Taoiseach informed me in July that it would be 2013, which was the first time that date was mentioned. Perhaps the Minister will clarify the difference between himself and the Taoiseach on this matter.

As the Minister said, the consultation process is over. At what stage is progress given the fact the Taoiseach gave a different date from him? If the date is different, it deviates from the roadmap and the commitments the Minister gave to the committee and the Dáil. We will hold the EU Presidency from January and the Minister, like myself, is a good European.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I am delighted to hear it.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   We do not want to be seen to be the odd man out here. The Minister will be president of the Environment Council and it will be embarrassing if we do not make substantial progress on this matter.

I welcome what the Minister said that he will liaise with Minister Attwood in the Northern Ireland Assembly on this matter. I would encourage him to do that and that, as far as possible, we have a joined up all-Ireland policy on climate change because climate change will not stop at the Border. We need good environmental policy North and South. Perhaps the Minister will clarify the issue of the difference between himself and the Taoiseach on this matter.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   As usual, there is no difference between the Taoiseach and myself on this matter. He indicated, as have I, that the heads of the climate change Bill will be available for publication at the end of the year.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   He said 2013. It is on the record.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The Deputy probably misunderstood him. The legislation will be enacted in 2013.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   No, I heard him.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   If the Deputy needs any clarification-----

An Ceann Comhairle:   Sorry-----

Deputy Phil Hogan:   A Cheann Comhairle-----

An Ceann Comhairle:   Speak through the Chair. Thank you.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   If the Deputy needs any clarification, that is the clarification he needs. Last January, I set out what the roadmap would be and it is on schedule.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   I took note of it.

An Ceann Comhairle:   Deputy, listen to the reply. We will let you in again if we have time.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   All Ireland policy stop with various policies. It is a good one to have on climate change but not so good on household charges. The heads of the Bill are on track for publication through the committee at the end of the year. The legislation will be enacted in 2013. I do not think there is any reason to be embarrassed.

Deputy Catherine Murphy:   Will there be a linkage between the approach to climate change in the Bill and energy security because there is a distinct linkage between them? It is not about whether it will be enacted next year apart from the embarrassment of holding the EU Presidency and not having the legislation in place.

Does the Minister agree that it is critical we have energy security and that it is linked to climate change? If, for example, we are to encourage people from the private sector to invest in renewable energy, there must be some certainty but we are pushing this further down the road.

Is it intended to link the two? What dialogue is taking place between the Minister and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources in regard to that linkage? In the absence of a secure energy supply, we are not going to be at the races in terms of guaranteeing growth in our economy.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Catherine Murphy:  ] Renewables will play a key part in that growth.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I agree with Deputy Catherine Murphy that it is important that all Departments, and particularly the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, act in a co-ordinated and integrated way with my Department on the issue of climate change. The Cabinet sub-committee on climate change holds regular meetings in which we seek to co-ordinate our response and ensure Departments are exploring and, indeed, implementing policies that will reduce our greenhouse gas emissions and deal with the issue of energy security.

I know the Ceann Comhairle has a personal interest in this matter because he was the Chairman of the Joint Committee on Climate Change and Energy Security in the last Dáil, which brought forward draft legislation and a number of meaningful policy documents in this area. We are looking at these in terms of implementing a package of measures to respond to our obligations under the EU.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   On 10 July 2013, the Taoiseach stated-----

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The legislation has already been promised.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   He stated that the heads of the Bill would be published in 2013. On the question of economic development, environmental protection and sustainability, does the Minister accept that we have to send out positive signals? There have been significant developments in the energy sector, particularly in the midlands, but there are concerns about where we are going as a country in terms of the further development of that sector. Does he recognise the importance of this area?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   Deputy Stanley will be aware that the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources recently published an energy policy setting out the milestones through which he is seeking to implement a more robust regime for renewables. Targets have been set for energy policy for 2020 and 2050. The Minister is conscious not only of his EU obligations, but also of the importance of reducing our dependence on imports of oil and less reliable fuels in driving our economic recovery and future development. His new energy policy clearly sets out the priority he attaches to the areas to which the Deputy referred.

I expect to put the heads of the climate change Bill before the Oireachtas committee before the end of this year.

Deputy Catherine Murphy:   One of the measures that has been at the centre of what the Minister describes as the recovery of this country was the proposal in his party's manifesto to invest €7 billion in green infrastructure. The absence of the legislation required to give coherence to this area makes it difficult for people. Much of this money will come from the private sector. We are sending a poor message and it appears that the private sector is making decisions for itself in the absence of a policy framework. We are probably missing significant opportunities for securing investment at an early stage by virtue of the fact that the legislation is being delayed until the middle of next year. Is there any prospect of it being brought forward in a speedier timeframe? Can our committee, for example, play a stronger role in doing that? Even the trimming of several months from the timeframe would be valuable rather than accepting that it will not be ready until the middle of next year.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   When I set out a roadmap in January the Deputy opposite did not believe it would happen and now it is going to happen, she wants to bring forward the timeframe for the sake of bringing it forward. We are going to try to get it right on this occasion. My predecessor tried to bring forward climate change legislation but encountered enormous difficulties not only within his own Government, but also with outside stakeholders.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Phil Hogan:  ] We will get one opportunity to do this properly and I am determined to work with the committee to get the balance right with regard to everyone's obligation to deal with this important issue.

The Deputy referred to NewERA in relation to investment in key infrastructural developments. During this term, we will bring forward legislation on water and proposals on broadband and energy. We are considering the sale of non-strategic State assets in order to provide investment in this area of activity. We said there is no reason why, over a five year period, we could not spend €7 billion from those resources and from private sector investment. That is still on track.

Local Government Reform

 43. Deputy Willie O'Dea   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the status of his local government reform document; the timeframe for its publication; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39000/12]

 56. Deputy Brian Stanley   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   his plans to reform town councils; and if so, the criteria he will be using and the consultation that will take place with the public and with elected representatives. [39071/12]

 69. Deputy Catherine Murphy   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the date on which he intends to publish new proposals for the reform of local government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39040/12]

 74. Deputy Brian Stanley   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the stage of his proposals for local government reform; when same will be made public; and the programme of consultation with the public and elected representative that will take place. [39076/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I propose to take Questions Nos. 43, 56, 69 and 74 together.

The Government’s broad policy approach in this area was set out in the programme for Government. In line with this, I intend to publish shortly a detailed policy statement and action programme for the reform of local government. The programme will set out a clear vision for the future of local government and proposals to achieve it, with particular focus on strengthening structures generally at regional, county and sub-county levels, expanding the role of local government, maximising operational and organisational efficiency and improving governance, oversight, local political and executive leadership and citizen engagement.

The reform programme will also reflect other work under way in regard to various aspects of local government, including local authority mergers, efficiency implementation, local government funding and alignment of local and community development with local government. The statement will outline implementation arrangements for the reform programme and certain issues which will be the subject of further policy work in the future.

Work on the development of these policy proposals has been informed by the extensive analysis and consultation that has taken place in regard to reform over the years. In recent times, I have received submissions from, and held discussions with, the local government representative associations, with individual local authority members and with interested groups. Some months ago, I also invited each individual councillor in the country to submit views to me on a number of issues relating to local government reform.

Publication of the policy statement will provide a further opportunity for public comment and input ahead of the development of legislation to provide for these reform measures and this legislation will be brought forward in 2013, in time for the local elections in 2014. The content of local government reform legislation will be a matter for Government decision in the first instance and will, of course, be the subject of Oireachtas scrutiny and debate in the normal way. In due course, I will be letting the Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht know the exact details of this legislation and of the implementation of our policy statement.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   I thank the Minister for his answer. When he brings forward his local government reform package I hope he does not simply seek to grab headlines and score political points by cutting councils and councillors for the sake of it. I am aware of the need for streamlining in this area. We cannot have, for example, up to 115 representatives in one county. I am also aware that local authorities have lost many of their functions over the years. They are no longer responsible for primary roads or waste collection and the Government now proposes to remove their responsibility for water services. Lack of funding has led to the deterioration or curtailment of other services, such as library facilities and fire services.

I hope whatever reform package the Minister introduces will give more power to local authorities. Whether in welfare, education or health, local authorities must be given more leverage to become better functioning authorities, which they can do with a proper reform package.

There has been much debate by the Minister's colleagues in Government about the performance of the Croke Park agreement and how each Department has effected the required savings. What savings has the Minister achieved in his Department, within the parameters of the agreement? Can he keep us constantly updated on such savings and let us know the savings he envisages in the coming years until a new agreement is put in place?

It is only right that Ministers begin to account for the management of their Departments. It is too easy to appeal, in soundbites, to certain sections of their own supporters and say that savings cannot be effected when pay is not on the table.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I am glad Deputy Cowen has decided to acknowledge that the decisions I make regarding my Department are not made for any populist reasons.

Deputy Finian McGrath:   That is for sure.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I am doing what I believe is right and it does not matter to the members of the public if the public or private sector delivers services as long as they get a good quality service. The public wants services from local authorities that are delivered effectively and effectively. Over the last three years, 8,000 staff have left the local government system, with numbers falling from 37,000 to 29,000 and those staff are still expected to deliver the same level of services. All of the various allowances and matters under benchmarking, which I opposed at the time, have imposed an enormous cost on the delivery of those services to the consumer. That is why so many local authorities got out of the waste collection system, because it was much more expensive to operate than in the private sector.

This year we will save €195 million by putting in place measures to achieve efficiencies through better procurement, IT and HR centralisation and shared services and over the next year we will see those savings accruing to the local government sector. They will not all be achieved this year but there will be €195 million savings as set out on in detail in the local government efficiency review group.

Estimated savings of €800 million could be made in local government in the next few years. Those savings have been identified by the local government efficiency review group out of the €7 billion we are providing in current and capital expenditure to the local government sector. There are opportunities to deliver better and more effective services without the traditional structures that have built up over the years.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   I have listened carefully to the Minister's reply and I am no clearer where this is going. It is in the programme for Government that local government reform will be introduced. On that subject, we are at one with the Minister; reform is needed and it has not happened under previous Governments. Local government must be modernised because the system does not match up properly. Town councils in some areas with a small population have huge powers while other large towns have town commission status. There are all sorts of anomalies in the system that we have discussed before. The Minister told me a number of times he would announce the reform programme before the summer recess but we have not heard anything. I have listened carefully to the Minister over the summer and I heard nothing about this. We need that reform. When will we have the policy statement and when can the House discuss it? When will the Oireachtas committee be able to discuss the services local authorities should provide and their functions, powers, finances and boundaries? Are we talking about county councils or town and district councils?

I acknowledge the savings that have been made and that local authority numbers have fallen from 37,000 to 29,000 and that this new staff complement is doing the same amount of work. That is a testament to those working in local authorities. One area the Minister might examine is directors of services and senior executive officers. There are two grades at the top of departments in small councils. We should examine if there is a need for both. Could a manager not liaise directly with a senior executive officer and do the same job?

I am anxious to see the Minister's proposals and would like to know when we will have the discussion.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The proposals on local government are before Government and I hope we will be in a position to clear them in the next week or two. The efforts being made to achieve this, because it is so important, are significant. Deputy Cowen mentioned the level of savings that could be achieved through doing things better and differently. In the last two and half years in local government, €553 million has been saved by delivering certain services differently, with some being outsourced and some being privatised, and others organised using structures that achieve better outcomes. That thinking informs some of the 106 recommendations made in 2010 by Mr. McLaughlin's group on local government efficiency. The public expects that.

The Deputy is particularly interested in structures on an all-Ireland basis and structures are being significantly reduced in Northern Ireland. The outcome of our discussions on these matters will lead to reductions in the number of authorities and public representatives. Those are not all of the proposals we will make, they are just two of many.

Deputy Catherine Murphy:   We do not have a local government system in this country in the real sense of the word, we have a local administration. If we are to change that, it will not happen as an event but through a process. Could the Minister outline how he sees that playing out? Will there be legislation next year followed by a process over a period years after that? What will be the final shape of the local government system?

When the last Government issued a Green Paper on local government, it was very frank about the mistrust between local and national government and how that has persisted since the foundation of the State. If we are to have a real system of local government, that must be addressed and there must be a transfer of powers between the administration to those who were elected. Will that form any part of the changes that will be made?

When we talk about reform, the only aspects that are discussed are the efficiencies from the point of view of costs. I acknowledge those are important but they are not the only issues that must be covered. We are missing an opportunity to reform the entire political system by not reforming the local government system in the first instance. I hope this will be an ambitious plan. Will the Minister outline the final shape envisaged for local government and the timeframe involved in shaping it?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The policy statement will be implemented between now and the 2014 local elections, that is the timeframe for the enactment of the legislation and the establishment of the new structures. The Boundary Commission must be established and report in good time to allow people to decide which electoral area they wish to stand in and to allow candidates and parties to get organised. On the last occasion, the Boundary Commission report was published in June 2008 for elections in 2009. I hope to give more time than that during this process for those who wish to consider standing.

I agree with Deputy Murphy in that we have had local administration rather than local government. I am anxious to secure agreement from my colleagues in Government that the process of devolution of powers from central Government and national agencies to local level is at the heart of the policy statement.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy:   In line with those proposals for 2014, can the Minister inform us if there will be a directly elected mayor for Dublin by then?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The Deputy must wait until I get Government approval for the suite of measures on local government reform before I can answer that question.

Deputy Mick Wallace:   Does the Minister agree that a more democratic and autonomous local government system would be in our best interests if we are to get citizen participation in local communities? We need a bottom up approach rather than top down, which is what we have had for a long time.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I agree with Deputy Wallace and I was taken with Deputy Cowen's remarks earlier that we are removing functions from local government when we have the most centralised system in the world thanks to his predecessors in Government taking away powers from local authorities and giving them to agencies and quangos. I want to see the reorganisation of local government structures resulting in more decisions being made at local level and community and with local development programmes aligned with local government to a greater extent.

The issue we must grapple with, the funding of such services, must also be addressed. Funding is critical for power at local level and that challenge exists for all local representatives who are genuinely interested in local government and its funding. It must be possible to raise and spend money at local level more openly and freely on the basis of local priorities.

An Ceann Comhairle:   Three other Deputies have indicated and we are running out of time so I ask them to put their questions. The Minister will then reply.

Deputy Clare Daly:   Does the Minister agree there is a certain contradiction between him saying he aspires to more devolution and greater powers at local level while Government policy seems to be removing decision making from local authorities? How will he square that circle against the backdrop of a public sector recruitment embargo? Is it not the case that he is engaged in a slash and burn butchering of the number of councils and dressing it up as reform when it is just a continuation of the status quo?

Deputy Brendan Griffin:   Will the Minister consider empowering councillors with the ability to represent people in respect of medical card applications and social welfare inquiries? Deputies currently do many of these jobs through the Oireachtas inquiry lines and this would free up the time of parliamentarians to deal with legislative issues. If the number of councillors is reduced, will he consider making these positions fully salaried to address the jumping through hoops process that exists whereby councillors drive all over the country attending conferences and so on, which is a waste of everybody's time? Will the Minister consider these proposals as part of the overall reform of local government?

Deputy Brian Stanley:   The last Boundary Commission report was published in 2008 and it caused problems for councillors, particularly a few in the Minister's party who were caught out on the wrong side of a boundary. Given the local elections will be held in June 2014, if the commission is to report earlier this time, it would have to do so late this year or early next year to improve on what the previous Government did. I hope the Minister will do that.

With regard to the North, there have been huge local government reforms but huge powers have also been devolved to local government.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   My question relates to Deputy Daly's question. Does the Minister not feel it is ridiculously ironic that he is telling the House he will bring forward a reform document that will empower local authorities and give them more functions and legislative powers while, at the same time, he is taking away water facilities and the water protection system? He is taking away the local knowledge that was most evident during our big freeze the winter before last. That local knowledge and expertise is being taken away from local authorities. What can he give them that is not being taken from them? He wanted to blame the previous Government for centralising local authority facilities and services.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I will retain local knowledge and the involvement of the local government system in Irish Water, as I said earlier. I will devolve as many functions as I can with the agreement of my colleagues. The agreement of Cabinet colleagues and agencies is needed on such issues. I intend to ensure devolution as far as possible.

In response to Deputy Daly, I am in favour of greater devolution. If she feels that 114 local authorities for a country of this size and in the current circumstances is too few, I disagree with her.

Deputy Clare Daly:   No, I do not, but the Minister might give them a few powers.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I am anxious to ensure we have sufficient representation, greater democratic input and greater decision making at local level, as I said in reply to Deputy Wallace. I expect to bring forward a Boundary Commission report in March or April next year.

With regard to Deputy Griffin's questions, local councillors make representations. As a former councillor, I made many representations on national issues, especially where offices were located locally. That is what I intend but I subscribe to the Deputy's overall principle that we need to ensure more powers are vested in local councillors in order that Parliament can have more of an opportunity to deal with national issues.

  Question No. 44 answered with Question No. 42.

Water Meters

 45. Deputy John McGuinness   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the current time frame for the introduction of water metering; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38988/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The programme for Government and the memorandum of understanding with the EU, IMF and ECB provide for the introduction of domestic water charges and the establishment of a new State-owned water utility. The Government considers that charging for water based on usage is the fairest way to charge for water and it has decided that water meters should be installed in households connected to public water supplies. International evidence has shown that where meters have been installed, significant reductions have been achieved in the level of consumption, and this is also borne out by the water savings achieved with metering in the group water sector.

The Government has also decided that Irish Water, a new State-owned water company to be established as an independent subsidiary within the Bord Gáis Éireann group, will be responsible for the metering programme. The Government recently approved the preparation of legislation to assign the necessary powers to allow Irish Water to undertake the metering programme. The objective is to have the Bill enacted by the end of this year. Pending the enactment of the legislation, my Department will work with local authorities to progress aspects of the metering programme, including the carrying out of surveys of domestic connections. It will also progress the tender documentation in parallel for elements of the meter infrastructure.

Local Government Fund

 46. Deputy Barry Cowen   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   if he will outline the reduction in the Local Government Fund allocation to each local authority area in tabular form; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38983/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I assume the question refers to general purpose grants from the local government fund. As indicated in the reply to Questions Nos. 37 and 41 , the two principal sources of revenue for the local government fund are the proceeds of motor tax and the income from the household charge. The Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 provides that income from the household charge be paid into the local government fund. The proceeds from the household charge are being redistributed on an equalised basis to local authorities within the context of the annual allocations of general purpose grants.

General purpose grants contribute towards meeting the reasonable cost to local authorities of providing services to their customers. Some €651 million in general purpose grants had been allocated to local authorities for 2012. I have decided to withhold general purpose grant funding to local authorities in the third quarter of this year in light of the level of compliance, so far, with the household charge. It is estimated that €160 million will be collected each year as part of the local government budget, and this was part of the budget at the beginning of the year for each local authority. As of 14 September, €103 million had been collected nationally. A total of €15.69 million was withheld from the third quarter general purpose grant payment, which represents a reduction of between 1% and 3% of the total general purpose grant allocation for 2012.

I am keeping the income generated from the household charge under constant review. It is up to individual local authorities to address potential funding shortfalls arising from non-compliance with the legislation and to pursue those who may have a liability and initiate court proceedings, where it is considered appropriate. Local authorities can progressively recoup their original general purpose grant allocation through improved household charge compliance. The final amount of general purpose grants available for 2012 will be revisited and reviewed in the final quarter of the year to take account of the then financial position, including progress on securing an increased household charge yield. I am confident that the level of general purpose grants, together with other Government grants and subsidies and income raised from local sources, is appropriate to meet the costs of providing a reasonable level of local authority services to communities.

The tabular statement sets out the information requested in respect of individual county and city councils.

Local Authority	Withheld from Quarter 3 General Purpose Grant Payment
Carlow County Council	246,235
Cavan County Council	419,804
Clare County Council	243,631
Cork County Council	979,559
Donegal County Council	1,016,872
Fingal County Council	545,285
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council	343,583
Galway County Council	779,835
Kerry County Council	417,043
Kildare County Council	564,622
Kilkenny County Council	412,407
Laois County Council	409,600
Leitrim County Council	291,318
Limerick County Council	453,821
Longford County Council	330,750
Louth County Council	278,293
Mayo County Council	641,589
Meath County Council	644,835
Monaghan County Council	340,589
Tipperary North Riding County Council	376,593
Offaly County Council	386,784
Roscommon County Council	436,249
Sligo County Council	325,113
South Dublin County Council	475,210
Tipperary South Riding County Council	462,782
Waterford County Council	507,283
Westmeath County Council	414,356
Wexford County Council	481,697
Wicklow County Council	369,163
Cork City Council	446,103
Dublin City Council	1,172,960
Galway City Council	123,887
Limerick City Council	203,098
Waterford City Council	154,343

Deputy Barry Cowen:   I cannot understand how the Minister can be so confident that local authorities will meet the demands of their constituents in providing services next year, given the difficulties they face towards the end of this year, by virtue of him penalising them for something they had nothing do with. With regard to the household charge and its child, the property tax, how long has the Minister had the Thornhill report on his desk? Has he brought it to Government? Has it been discussed at Cabinet? When does he expect to make a recommendation?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The property tax report, or the Thornhill report as it is known, has been with me since June and I will bring it to Government in the context of the budgetary matters that will be under discussion over the next few weeks.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   There must be many pages in it.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   It is a budgetary matter.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   It must be an excessively big document when one thinks the Minister has had it since June and has not brought it to Cabinet yet.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I have read it.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   The whole country can talk about options that might or might not be in the report while the Minister decides what he wants to take from it. This fanfare must come to an end. The Minister has to bring about a proper budgetary and management system. The whole thing is in complete disarray.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   It goes back to-----

Deputy Barry Cowen:   It goes back to the troika and all the rest of it. We are hearing that for the past few years.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan:   The budget is in December.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   Deputy Cowen will be aware that as part of the negotiated agreement, with which he is well familiar----

Deputy Barry Cowen:   That the Government did not renegotiate the agreement, having promised it would.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   -----a property tax was in the text. The EU-IMF require us to implement such a tax. The interim tax was the household charge, which will help to develop the database to ensure people get a bill in 2013 and beyond. The Minister for Finance will bring forward the property tax and it will be part of the Budget Statement.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:   Does the Minister think it is completely unacceptable that Clare County Council is blackmailing applicants for higher education grants in the context of the household charge-----

An Ceann Comhairle:   Deputy, we have dealt with that. This has nothing to do with the question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:   -----and threatening the future of young people and their career and education prospects?

Deputy Finian McGrath:   Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle:   Thank you, Deputy. There is a Deputy sitting here who has been waiting for the past three quarters of an hour for his question. I thought the Deputy had a question when I gave him the floor. I call Deputy Higgins.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   The Minister is not from County Clare, thank God.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   I ask the Minister to acknowledge that since the household tax is almost an austerity tax to bail out the speculators and bondholders, it is absolutely immoral for him to cut back on funds for services from central taxation that will affect the lives and livelihoods of ordinary people. Does the Minister not agree further that it is an outrage that county councils would threaten students with their grants-----

An Ceann Comhairle:   I thank the Deputy and ask him to put his question in respect of what is on the Order Paper.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   -----to try to blackmail their parents into giving up their completely justified boycott against this tax?

Deputy Finian McGrath:   Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle:   We have already dealt with that issue.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   As Deputy Higgins is aware, the Government is trying to broaden the tax base from a standing start with no database and it will do that.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   The Minister should listen to Peter Bacon, who has ridiculed that idea. He rebuts it.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The Deputy must be the only socialist in the world who is against that-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:   Is it okay to blackmail people?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   -----as one of the few so-called socialists in the place. However, the Government will broaden the tax base. Unlike Deputy Higgins, it does not wish to impose any more tax on workers.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   Who will pay the property tax? Will it be someone from Mars?

An Ceann Comhairle:   We will turn to Question No. 47.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   Apparently, a Cheann Comhairle, there are secret pots of gold under every house.

An Ceann Comhairle:   Thank you, Deputy. Please speak through the Chair.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The Deputy should try the fracking.

An Ceann Comhairle:   Thank you. Please speak through the Chair.

Septic Tank Registration Scheme

 47. Deputy Micheál Martin   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the number of septic tank owners that have signed up to the registration system; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39006/12]

 50. Deputy Martin Ferris   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   the financial supports that will be put in place to assist households upgrading their septic tanks to meet the new standards. [39072/12]

 76. Deputy Charlie McConalogue   asked the Minister for the Environment; Community and Local Government   if he will outline the details of the septic tank registration information campaign he has undertaken; the money budgeted for the campaign; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39011/12]

Deputy Phil Hogan:   I propose to take Questions Nos. 47, 50 and 76 together.

The Water Services (Amendment) Act 2012 provided for the establishment of a new system for the registration and inspection of septic tanks and other domestic waste water treatment systems. The 2012 Act augments the duty of care placed on the owners of on-site waste water treatment systems, under section 70 of the Water Services Act 2007, to ensure their systems do not endanger public health or the environment. The basic standard to be met by all on-site systems is they are operated and maintained correctly and do not endanger public health or the environment. Following a public consultation process earlier this year, I made regulations in June specifying standards for the operation and maintenance of treatment systems. The standards set out in the regulations are consistent with what owners should be doing as a matter of course to ensure their systems are working properly.

I also made separate regulations in June setting out the procedures for householders to register details of their treatment systems with their local authorities. The Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, has developed for the 34 county and city councils, on a shared service basis, an online registration facility and the agency is also tasked with managing a central bureau to process payments of the registration fee. There are just ten days remaining for people to avail of the reduced registration fee of €5 and thereafter, up to the end of February 2013, the fee will be €50 and I encourage householders to register as soon as possible. Application forms are available from local authority offices, public libraries and citizens’ information centres or the fee can be paid online at www.protectourwater.ie. I have asked the local authorities to distribute an information leaflet to all homes in un-sewered areas advising householders of how they can register, as well providing some practical advice on the operation and maintenance of septic tanks. In addition, the LGMA has placed advertisements with local newspapers and radio stations informing the public about the requirement to register and in particular about the reduced registration fee available until 28 September.

Revenue from the registration fee will be used to cover the costs of developing and maintaining the register and associated costs, including publicity and awareness measures.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Will the Minister penalise local authorities if he does not achieve the level of registration he expects or seeks in this regard as well? I note the Minister has been in possession of the Thornhill report since June and Members are waiting to find out when he will finish reading it before bringing it to the Government. Second, for how long has the Minister had to hand the recommendations in respect of the guidelines that might form a uniform guideline to be applicable nationwide in respect of standards for septic tanks? I presume the Minister has made no provision for funds that might be available for those who do not meet such guidelines for standards when he eventually publishes them.

Deputy Brian Stanley:   The Minister should indicate the number of people who have registered as I have not heard an answer to date. In a similar question to the previous speaker, will the local authorities be penalised on a pro rata basis in this regard? I refer to the financial supports that will be available because people are taking a leap of faith in this regard. While they may not be happy to so do, some people are registering. However, as matters stand they have no certainty or clue as to what kind of financial support will be in place. I am thinking in particular of low-income households that cannot afford to carry out the upgrades that will be required as per the inspections.

An Ceann Comhairle:   The Minister to wind up.

Deputy Phil Hogan:   The standards for septic tanks were agreed by the Oireachtas joint committee early last July and they are standard nationwide for each local authority. Consequently, they are well known by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht and I assume everyone is clear with regard to them. A total of 76,000 have registered to date with the Local Government Management Agency.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Will the Minister penalise local authorities?

Deputy Phil Hogan:   No.

Message from Seanad

An Ceann Comhairle:   Seanad Éireann has passed the Residential Institutions Statutory Fund Bill 2012, without amendment, the Electoral (Amendment) (Political Funding) Bill 2011, without amendment, and the Public Service Pensions (Single Scheme and Other Provisions) Bill 2011, without amendment.

Message from Select Committee

An Ceann Comhairle:   The Select Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality has completed its consideration of the Personal Insolvency Bill 2012 and has made amendments thereto.

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Before the last general election, the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, personally led a deeply cynical campaign on health promises and health issues. Across the length and breadth of the country, he promised that he and Fine Gael would ensure that no one lost any services and that a set of new, free services would be provided. Upon his appointment, the Minister announced the abolition of the management structures of the health services and that he was taking personal charge, but they have been leaderless and lacking governance ever since. He announced that waiting lists would reduce, prescriptions would be cheaper and free GP care for all was on the way. Since then, waiting lists have lengthened, prescriptions are just as expensive and the extension of free GP care is nowhere to be seen, despite being announced numerous times. He presented a false and dishonest budget to the House last year. He was warned repeatedly about this and was alerted about the crippling position regarding the health finances but did absolutely nothing except to repeat the mantra that front line services would be protected, while he already was implementing disproportionate and unfair cuts on the most vulnerable.

There is a deep sense of despair across the health sector in hospitals and community care. Members of the Government, as well as backbenchers, have been quoted left right and centre across the media as criticising the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and in particular his recent announcements in respect of cuts to those with disabilities. They have described those cuts in that announcement as being a catastrophe and regrettable. One Labour Party Minister was accused of having stated that "he should have had [I will translate - the liathróidí] to... announce the cuts himself, not hide behind one of his HSE lackeys". There is no precedent for a situation in which a Taoiseach praises a Minister for being brave in reversing cuts while the Minister simultaneously still is claiming the cuts never actually happened. The Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, at least has been honest about the failure by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, to manage the health budget by, for example, not negotiating a new agreement with the pharmaceutical sector.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   I ask the Deputy to conclude the question please.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   She even offered to chair those negotiations herself. However, she wrote to the Minister on 27 July asking for a report and stating she had no delegated statutory authority in respect of primary care and that she had not been consulted with regard to any matter pertaining to the budget.

I put it to the Taoiseach that the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, was asked specifically a number of times whether she had confidence in the Minister, Deputy Reilly, on Newstalk, on "Morning Ireland" and in newsprint. The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, and the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, also were asked, in newsprint. All of them refused to state, very simply, "I have confidence in the Minister, Deputy James Reilly".

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   I ask the Taoiseach whether the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, is correct in stating the Government's commitment to health reform genuinely is being questioned because of the Minister's lack of proactive engagement with the issues.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Micheál Martin:  ] Will the Taoiseach comment on reports that there will be numerous cutbacks in hospitals? Will he outline to the House how hospital deficits will be dealt with between now and December? Is he aware of planned closure of wards?

The Taoiseach:   The Deputy is anticipating the motion of no confidence in the Minister, Deputy Reilly, tabled by his party. I understand Fianna Fáil had some kind of think-in in recent days because I seem to have heard this comment and statement from the Deputy. He said the Minister, Deputy Reilly, introduced a deeply cynical budget, which I reject. He made three points: that he committed to waiting lists being reduced, that prescriptions would be cheaper and that free GP care would be on the way. Those are the three charges he made and he has repeated them on numerous occasions.

It is reasonable to say that no one would be in a position to clear up the extent of the mess that was left behind after the Deputy and his colleagues removed themselves - or were removed by the people - from these benches. For his information, with regard to waiting list progress, for instance, there has been a reduction of 225 in the number of patients waiting on trolleys between January and September of this year when compared with the same period last year. That equates to 13,450 fewer patients waiting on trolleys. In addition, the number of adults having to wait more than 12 months for inpatient and day case surgery has reduced by 85% and the number waiting more than nine months has reduced by 63%. Those are not cynical allegations but are facts.

In respect of cheaper prescriptions, the legislation on reference pricing for drugs was introduced in the Seanad in July and will recommence there tomorrow.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   It is a good job we still have it.

The Taoiseach:   The Committee and Remaining Stages of the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Bill 2012 will be taken tomorrow. I assure Deputy Martin and everyone else that given the extent of legislation published and introduced into the House in the last period, this is a priority for this session and it starts again tomorrow.

In regard to free GP care, this is a little behind time, I admit. The legislation agenda is published today and this item is on the A list. The Government considered this and it is a priority. Work continues on that Bill to get it into the House as quickly as we can in order that free GP care can be extended to persons with prescribed illnesses. In addition, legislation to abolish restrictions on GPs wishing to become contractors under the General Medical Services, GMS, scheme is now in place.

Those are the three issues Deputy Martin raised and with which he bombarded his party at its think-in. Those are his answers.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Fundamentally I asked the Taoiseach two core questions. First, does the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, have genuine confidence in the Minister, Deputy Reilly? That relates to very fractious correspondence between the two in July and May, when the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall, confirmed that despite seeking delegated authority on primary care, she had been frustrated time and again by the Minister, Deputy Reilly.

Furthermore, I did not say the Minister's budget was cynical. I said his election campaigning was cynical. I said his budget was false and dishonest. I agree with the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall. The Minister pencilled in €124 million for pharmaceuticals, another €140 for health insurance companies and €100 million for halving the agency staff.

Deputy James Reilly:   The Deputy should get his facts right.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   The Minister did not do a single thing in regard to any of those in the first eight months of this year, knowing full well that those targets were not realisable. That is why I charged that it was a false budget and that is what has put the health service into the crisis in which it finds itself this year in terms of finances.

The Taoiseach mentioned waiting lists. The cynical thing the Minister did on waiting lists was to change the targets and timelines. World benchmarks are three months and six months. He went out to nine months and 12 months-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   A question, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   -----above which there are very few people, and then he quotes percentages. The key targets and objectives of the National Treatment Purchase Fund and its achievements over the years were dramatically reducing those on waiting lists for more than three months and six months. Since the Minister, Deputy Reilly, has come to office those waiting lists-----

Deputy James Reilly:   There has been a 66% reduction.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   -----have escalated and gone through the roof.

Deputy Finian McGrath:   What about people with disabilities? What did the Government do for them?

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin:   It is not just those on this side of the House who have deep misgivings about how the Minister, Deputy Reilly, is acting. One Labour Minister is quoted as saying: "Several times I have tried to work with him on a number of things and he appears to be so partisan that if you're not one of his cronies, he doesn't want to know. I don't have that problem with any other Fine Gael Minister." Another Labour Minister said: "I would have some respect for him, but it was so [expletive deleted] cowardly, and for the amount of money involved, the heat we're all going to get from this is farcical."

Deputy James Reilly:   Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   "The first I heard of the cuts was the HSE announcement," said the Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock. "Everyone else has managed to live with Croke Park and keep within budget. What is so special about James Reilly?" asked one senior figure. I ask the Taoiseach to read any newspaper in the past three weeks. The benches here deserted that man in droves in recent weeks and left him isolated because of his mismanagement of the emergency services. It is unprecedented that when Ministers are asked the simple question as to whether they have confidence in a fellow colleague, a senior Minister, Deputy Burton, and Ministers of State, Deputies Jan O'Sullivan and Shortall, could not articulate confidence in a senior colleague. That is the bottom line.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   I call the Taoiseach.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   The Taoiseach would be well advised not to be attacking this side of the House but to reflect on what is, unfortunately and regrettably, a common refrain across this House irrespective of party or constituency in terms of the management of the health service in 2012.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   I call the Taoiseach.

A Deputy: Deputy Martin ran away.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Let the Taoiseach answer.

Deputy Pat Deering:   Do we have a new Ceann Comhairle now?

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan:   No, a new leader.

The Taoiseach:   It is a bit rich for Deputy Martin to come into the House on the resumption of parliamentary business and talk about cynicism and misleading information and comments. Does he belong to a party that told the people they would have the cheapest bailout in history? Did I hear that from his party? Does the Deputy bear that brand on his forehead?

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Fine Gael voted for it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Order, please.

The Taoiseach:   The cheapest bailout in history.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae:   The new Minister for Health will not pay for one-----

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   I remind Deputy Healy Rae that this is Leaders' Questions.

The Taoiseach:   Deputy Martin never bothered-----

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Do they have confidence?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Order, please.

The Taoiseach:   Deputy Martin never bothered to look at what his Government created when it set up the original structure of the HSE. I want to tell him something now.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   I want to tell the Taoiseach something about the files in the Taoiseach's office that were shredded. Is that a figment of his imagination, Lenin coming to Ireland in 1922?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Deputy Martin-----

The Taoiseach:   The only reason the Deputy wants to take the course he is now taking is that he is terrified of the party on his right-hand side and his opportunism know no bounds.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   I think the Taoiseach is terrified of some of those on his left-hand side.

A Deputy: Who is coming second in the opinion polls?

The Taoiseach:   The motion of no confidence takes place this evening and tomorrow. There will be a vote on it and he can be assured of the Minister and his Ministers of State speaking in his defence-----

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Speaking in his defence?

The Taoiseach:   -----and the Fine Gael and Labour Parties supporting the work of the Minister for Health as he goes about his duties in so far as his remit is concerned.

I ask Deputy Martin to look at the consequence of what his Government created. He should go down to Kiltimagh in my county.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Roscommon.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Nenagh.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   The Taoiseach without interruptions, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   The Taoiseach promised them left, right and centre, and was caught out on tape.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   He stood in the square.

The Taoiseach:   He should go down and speak-----

Deputy Micheál Martin:   He swore blind in here that he gave them no promise, but the tape appeared and he was recorded making a very definitive commitment.

Deputy Paul Kehoe:   Does the Deputy want to hear the truth?

The Taoiseach:   -----to the proprietor of Home Care Medicals and walk into its warehouse. There is at least €3 million worth of equipment in that warehouse that has not been used for three years because of the bureaucracy that the Deputy's Government set up when the HSE was implemented in the first place.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:   The Taoiseach has been in government for a year and a half. Why does he not do something about it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Please-----

The Taoiseach:   Each piece of that equipment has been decontaminated, packed and barcoded. However, simply because of the structure Deputy Martin's Government set up, people throughout the country have not been able to access beds, mattresses, hoists or wheelchairs.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Whom is the Taoiseach codding?

The Taoiseach:   We had endless recurring purchasing within the structure of the HSE. The Deputy should go down and have a look at it. That will change because I informed the Minister, Deputy Reilly, of it last night.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Timmy Dooley:  ] That is not a big medical crisis.

The Taoiseach:   Does Deputy Martin realise that a mattress for one of these beds costs €1,000-----

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Does the Taoiseach realise that every penny spent on those mattresses is-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Order, please.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Barry Cowen:   The number of trolleys or mattresses will not resolve the problem.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Are we going to face more ward closures? Can the Taoiseach confirm that?

Deputy Arthur Spring:   What was Fianna Fáil's plan?

The Taoiseach:   -----of which there are 500? Does the Deputy realise that 147 people are currently waiting for one of these beds, which they could have in their own homes?

Deputy Micheál Martin:   The Taoiseach is diverting from the core question.

The Taoiseach:   In terms of the structure which Deputy Martin set up, he never bothered to look at the monster he created. That is all going to change now.

The Deputy raised three points.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   He will raise another three later.

The Taoiseach:   Waiting lists are down 22%, or 13,450 patients in the past 12 months. In respect of day surgery, the list is down 85% and the waiting list in respect of those waiting more than nine months is down by 63%. The legislation in respect of cheaper prescriptions is back before the Seanad tomorrow and will be taken here as quickly as possible.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Will there be ward closures?

The Taoiseach:   The legislation will be taken in the Seanad tomorrow and will be taken in this House as quickly as possible.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Will there be ward closures?

The Taoiseach:   The legislation in regard to GP care is a matter of priority.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Will there be ward closures?

The Taoiseach:   Fianna Fáil can have its vote of confidence and will see the result.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Will there be ward closures?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   I call Deputy Gerry Adams.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   I have asked the Taoiseach five times if there will be ward closures.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae:   Deputy Martin will have to ask him again.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Order, please. I have called Deputy Adams.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   Táimid ar ais arís agus ba mhaith liom an Taoiseach a fháiltiú ar ais go dtí an Dáil. Tá súil agam go raibh sos maith aige thar an samhradh.

I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that the high point of the samhradh was the achievement of our Olympians and Paralympians. For me, the low point was the Government's plan to take entitlements from citizens with disabilities. Among other entitlements, the Government proposes to reduce personal assistant hours. Citizens with disabilities have rights. Those disabled citizens and carers who camped outside Tithe an Rialtais and picketed the Cabinet are to be commended. Is laochraí iad agus daoine an-chróga atá ag déanamh obair an-thábhachtach agus iontach ar son a gclann agus a bpáistí agus ar son fir agus ban eile atá faoi chois ag an Rialtas.

These brave citizens forced the Government to do a U-turn. However, it still intends to proceed with cuts in home help hours and home care packages. The proposed reductions in agency staff and overtime will throw our hospitals into even greater crisis. Cuts to hospitals across this State, including in my own constituency, will result in more bed and ward closures, more citizens on trolleys and the undermining of essential services. This is nothing short of a scandal.

This Government has been in office for 18 months. I acknowledge it picked up a mess left by the people on my left. However, will the Taoiseach accept that following 18 months in office he and the Minister, Deputy Reilly, are presiding over a deep crisis in our health services? Does he not see that the cuts promised in the forthcoming budget will make this crisis even worse?

The Taoiseach:   Tá fáilte roimh an Teachta Adams thar n-ais. Tá sé ag leanúint ar aghaidh leis an rud a bhí sé ag rá roimh an samhraidh.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   Sin é.

The Taoiseach:   Tá súil agam go bhfeicfidh mé é Dé Domhnaigh seo chugainn freisin. B'fhéidir gur pointe an-árd a bhéas ann. Deputy Adams will shortly have an opportunity to put on the record his party's constructive suggestions as to how we should deal with the fiscal challenge faced by our people and country not just for the next year, but beyond. I look forward to hearing constructive suggestions from him.

It is not with any pleasure that anybody stands up to say difficult choices must be made in the time ahead. The proposal to reduce personal assistant hours for those who work with members of their families or persons who are disabled was dealt with swiftly by the Minister, Deputy Reilly. I listened to the powerful words of Martin Naughton when he spoke outside Government Buildings. That matter was dealt with swiftly by the Minister, Deputy Reilly. The savings will come from cash management, travel and so on from within the administrative disability budget.

On the progress made over the past weekend at the Labour Relations Commission in respect of consultants and the number of other matters to be referred to the Labour Court, progress within the Croke Park agreement will lead to further savings, increased efficiency, greater throughput of patients and greater focus on patients' needs. That is an issue on which the Deputy will have an opportunity to have his say. Deputy Adams should not kid himself; while we have made steady progress through choppy economic waters, this country faces a series of challenges up ahead, which will not be easy for anybody. I do not underestimate the scale of that. In so far as health is concerned, the focus of the Minister for Health and the Government must be on the patient who deserves the best care and attention he or she can get.

Within the resources available, it is clear that many people are now doing so much more with less and that the impact that was assumed back in February when many people left the public service by choice was dealt with efficiently by front line staff in a whole range of areas.

We have work to do to change the structure of the health system to get to the point where the programme for Government can be implemented in terms of a single tier health system in which there is far greater focus and affect on the needs, requirements and facilities available to patients. Does Deputy Adams not understand that everybody in this House has the same philosophy in that regard? We may have differences of view about how one goes about this. The Minister, Deputy Reilly, dealt swiftly with the issue the Deputy raised.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   I call Deputy Adams who has one minute for a supplementary question.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that the judgment of any society of any state is the protections it affords to its citizens, in particular the elderly, children, vulnerable people and people with disabilities.

Deputy Shane McEntee:   Such as Jean McConville.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   In particular, a State which calls itself a republic-----

Deputy Shane McEntee:   Jean McConville.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   -----where citizens have rights. The heckler is totally out of order. I will raise that matter later with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   This is Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   The Deputy is totally out of order.

Deputy Tom Hayes:   What did he say?

Deputy Gerry Adams:   We are dealing with serious issues here. The Taoiseach in his response to me said that the Government is making difficult choices. The Government is making the wrong choices.

Deputy Pearse Doherty:   Hear, hear.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   It is also making the wrong choices in regard to its election commitments. Most of what it is doing is totally in contradiction with what it promised. Does the Taoiseach recall the Leaders' debate in February 2011? The Tánaiste said that the first issue the Labour Party would address in government, in terms of equality and decent supports for people, would be that of disability. The Taoiseach agreed with that and said it would be an absolute priority. However, once the Fine Gael and Labour parties got into government they commenced cutting services to the elderly and those with disabilities while at the same time kowtowing to vested interests in the EU and the financial sector. Next month, on the Taoiseach's watch, unguaranteed bondholders will received another €1 billion. The Government is taking money from vulnerable front line sectors to put into unguaranteed bondholders.

The Taoiseach and Tánaiste have expressed confidence in the Minister, Deputy Reilly, which is hardly surprising.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   A question please, Deputy.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   Apart from the "Yes" men and women in the Labour and Fine Gael parties, he is on his own.

Deputy Finian McGrath:   Hear, hear.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   The Taoiseach is totally and absolutely on his own. Those who are working in and using the services do not share that confidence. With more cuts planned for December, will the Taoiseach not accept that it is long past time for the Minister, Deputy Reilly, to go? I know he is only implementing Government policy. Minister Reillys come and Minister Reillys go.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan:   Deputy Adams will always be here.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   It is important the Government gets back to implementing the mandate it was given and keeps the promises it made as opposed to doing the exact opposite. It should uphold the rights of citizens, in particular, those who are vulnerable.

The Taoiseach:   I am interested in the Deputy's comment about protection of our citizens. I would like if he would elaborate on that sometime.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   Absolutely. Does the Taoiseach want me to do it now? The Taoiseach asked me a question. Does he want me to do that now?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Deputy, the Taoiseach has the floor. One speaker at a time, please.

The Taoiseach:   I hope that comment is not out of order. I would be interested to hear the Deputy elaborate on his comment.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   Má shuíonn an Taoiseach síos, déanfaidh mé anois é. Is it better to do it now? Let us have a real debate now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Deputy Adams.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   Certain citizens with disabilities had to camp outside-----

The Taoiseach:   The Deputy will be aware that up to 2011 there were budget reductions of approximately €1.75 billion in the health services. The year 2012 saw further reductions of €0.75 billion. The fact is that €130 million in additional savings have to be achieved by the end of this year. Some €63 million or almost 50% will come from more focused cash and stock management initiatives, savings in medical equipment which are non-capital, items such as furniture, education, training, office expenses, travel, subsistence and advertising. Some €6 million in savings will come from the non-imbursement of certain non-essential products. Removing gluten free products will result in savings of about €3.6 million on an annual basis.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn:   Shame on the Taoiseach. Celiacs are----

The Taoiseach:   All of those have no impact on patient care. That means that €60.5 million in savings will come from specific service related measures. Deputy Adams will have an opportunity shortly to spell what he would do, not that he will ever have the chance. Agency and overtime reductions will account for savings of €35 million. The reduction in average length of stay is key to the delivery of agreed activity levels with fewer beds and therefore less staffing. There will be re-alignment of services in line with international best practice, redeployment of staff and revision of rostering practices. All of these have been referred to by the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and will be dealt with again in the debate on the motion of no confidence.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   What about home help hours and home care packages?

The Taoiseach:   The Minister has directed that every efficiency will be extracted prior to cutting any service. Patient safety is paramount. Care and sensitivity is to be applied in the case of Letterkenny, Naas and Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, Drogheda where there are significant service challenges and a heavy dependency on overtime and agencies. The Deputy will be aware of the situation in so far as sick leave is concerned and so on. Inpatient discharges are 2.7% higher than the period last year and 8.1% above target. All of these can be dealt with during the course of the Private Members' motion.

The point is that the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and his Ministers of State follow Government policy and the mandate given to the Government was to sort out the public finances of the country, restore our economic sovereignty and give an opportunity for this country to provide jobs, employment and careers for our people and young people in particular and not to have them travel to other lands by necessity. That is a situation that is not easy to achieve. It is not with any great pleasure that any Minister has to refer to this as the challenging road ahead but as a women said to me last week, sometimes it is necessary to do hard things in the interests of the country. The impact of what has to be done in terms of patient care and patient facility is very close to the heart of Government and the heart of the Minister, Deputy Reilly, and will continue to be so.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   I call Deputy Ross on behalf of the Technical Group.

Deputy Shane Ross:   No one would deny the difficulty that the Government has in making the cuts and balancing the budget in the current situation. The problem, as enunciated by two previous speakers, is that no adequate explanations have been given for the cuts being proposed. I refer not only to the cuts in the health service, which several speakers have addressed, but there seems to be a competing appetite for austerity among some of the Taoiseach's Ministers, competing on a daily basis to target sections of the population who cannot afford to pay for those cuts. I refer particularly to the recent decision - in respect of which the House deserves an explanation - not only to tax property owners but to tackle pensioners as though they are particularly well off.

Property tax is something the Taoiseach is asking middle Ireland to pay when middle Ireland has paid enough. Middle and lower income citizens will be asked to pay sums they cannot afford. Property tax will affect people from Dublin and lower income people disproportionately. Property tax will affect people in negative equity and in that case it will be, in effect, a tax on liabilities. It will also discriminate against people who have already paid large amounts of stamp duty. Middle Ireland cannot understand how it is being asked for more when many have not even paid the household charge. The time for a property tax to be introduced was in 2005 to 2007. I would like the Taoiseach to comment on this. That was the time when there was a-----

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Order, please.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan:   Was the Deputy advocating that in the Sunday Independent?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Could the Deputy Ross frame his question?

Deputy Shane Ross:   Yes. I am coming to the question.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Shane Ross:   The time for that was when the furnace was burning not now when the Taoiseach is trying to extract some oxygen from the ashes.

Why can the Taoiseach not go back to the troika which is demanding a property tax, and with whom it has agreement, and tell it about the report last week from the IMF? The Taoiseach will have read it. The IMF said that growth rates in this country will be down by almost half its projections for this year - from 0.7% to 0.4% and that growth rates next year will be down from 2.4% to 1.4%. What it is saying is that we cannot afford to pay, based on the assumptions set out in the bailout. Could the Taoiseach not go back to the troika and tell it that by the IMF's own criterion we cannot impose these sorts of taxes on middle Ireland because it will not be able to pay them?

The Taoiseach:   I have often given the Deputy credit for his extensive knowledge of-----

Deputy Eamonn Maloney:   Middle Ireland.

Deputy Mattie McGrath:   It is no laughing matter.

The Taoiseach:   -----the broad world of economics but he said that the time to introduce a property tax was in 2005 or 2007. The Deputy realises that if a property tax was introduced in those years with house values the way they were, the level of such a tax would have been extraordinary when people were paying €1 million for end of terrace houses and multiples of millions for houses in the greater Dublin area and places around the country.

Deputy Timmy Dooley:   You did not think of that one. It depends on how much one charges.

The Taoiseach:   Deputy Ross should be clear on this. The following is the situation in so far as a property tax is concerned. A property tax will be introduced.

Deputy Joan Collins:   A family home tax.

The Taoiseach:   The Government made a decision that the Revenue Commissioners would design the process and the mechanics of how that would apply. A property tax will apply from 1 July next year. The Minister for Finance ruled out implementing a property tax in the way and at the level that the IMF recently reported, as 0.5% of market value.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   It has not been brought to Government yet.

The Taoiseach:   The situation is that anything outside that is entirely speculative. The Government has not considered the Thornhill report in detail, it will do so collectively and will make a decision on that.

Deputy Barry Cowen:   It takes the Minister three months.

The Taoiseach:   When I joined the county council many years ago, people paid for water and refuse services and they paid rates. Surely in Deputy Ross's constituency in Dublin, he recognises that year after year commercial ratepayers were completely squeezed and have come to the point where many of them, with the downturn in retail activity, have not been able to draw anything from their business for quite some time. The requirement here is to broaden the tax base by having an equitable and affordable property tax. That is the question that the Government will decide on in due course.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   So you are not the one who said it was a vampire tax.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Order please. I have called Deputy Shane Ross.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Could we have order please?

Deputy Shane Ross:   I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. The Taoiseach said that any comment on this was speculative. Does that include his own statement that it would raise €500 million, which he is on record as saying?

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Which he has not decided.

Deputy Shane Ross:   Does that include the fact that the Minister for Finance has already said that it would not be 0.5%?

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Which he has not decided.

Deputy Shane Ross:   Does that include other statements from members of the Government about it coming in? What is happening here is a softening up process.

Deputy Mattie McGrath:   Yes.

Deputy Shane Ross:   The Government is leaking stuff to the press left, right and centre. It is appearing all the time. It is making statements on the record as well-----

A Deputy: We would not dream of it.

Deputy Shane Ross:   -----to soften people up and then saying-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Shane Ross:   -----that this is speculative. What is happening here is that the middle classes and the lower paid are being prepared for another blow which they cannot pay. Would the Taoiseach therefore give some comfort to those in negative equity that they will not have to pay property tax? Will he give some comfort to house owners in Dublin that they will not have to pay a disproportionate amount based on the value of their houses? Will he give some comfort to those on low incomes that they will not have to pay the same amount as those on higher incomes, and will he give some comfort to any other person in a vulnerable position who will not be able to pay that tax?

Deputy Barry Cowen:   Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach:   What the Deputy is engaged in is a box ticking exercise to rule out or rule in certain references to the property tax so that he can narrow the field, as it were.

Deputy Mattie McGrath:   Kicking the can down the road.

The Taoiseach:   I will repeat for the Deputy the concrete decisions that have been made. There will be a property tax. The Revenue Commissioners have been asked to design the mechanics of that scheme. It will apply from 1 July next year.

In respect of people being frightened, the IMF report which was published was ruled out by the Minister for Finance in so far as the implementation of its reference to a property tax as 0.5% was concerned. Anything else outside those concrete decisions is speculative. I have seen one newspaper indicate that a decision was made that the rate would be at a certain level. All of these things are speculative. The one that is ruled out in terms of rate of tax is 0.5% of market value.

Let us be clear on this. The Government will consider the recommendations from the Minister in respect of the Thornhill report in due course and Government will reflect on that very carefully. We would like that the property tax to be introduced would be as fair and as affordable as possible.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   That concludes Leaders' Questions. Does the Taoiseach wish to make a statement?

The Taoiseach:   Will I do it now or on the Order of Business?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   Is the House agreed that it be made now? Agreed.

Constitutional Referendum: Announcement by Taoiseach

The Taoiseach:   I wish to announce for the information of the House that the Government has finalised the wording of a constitutional amendment on the protection of children and has decided to hold a referendum on this important issue on Saturday, 10 November next.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   On a point of order-----

The Taoiseach:   I am not making a speech. It is only for information, Deputy. It is my intention, along with the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs-----

Deputy Micheál Martin:   On a point of order-----

The Taoiseach:   -----to brief the leaders of the Opposition parties in advance of the publication of the wording of the proposed amendment tomorrow, and tomorrow the Minister will publish also the adoption (amendment) Bill, announce the establishment of a referendum commission and name its chairperson.

As was done with the European Stability Mechanism referendum earlier this year, the Government is committed to ensuring that the people have all the information they need to make an informed decision on 10 November and to that end there will be a well resourced referendum commission along with a comprehensive Government information campaign.

The protection of children is an issue that is of concern to us all. Numerous reports over many years have called for dedicated constitutional provisions for children. There has been very good cross-party co-operation on this issue over many years. I believe that the referendum proposals which will be announced tomorrow, along with the other reforms that are already under way to improve our child welfare and protection services, will be an historic step forward. I look forward to working with Members of the House and with civil society organisations over the coming months to ensure a positive outcome. I will brief the Opposition parties, publish the wording and the adoption Bill and name the referendum commission chairperson tomorrow.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   I would make the point to the Taoiseach that this is very slack behaviour, frankly. He should have consulted with us today that this announcement was being made. There is no major difficulty about it. Our spokesman spoke to the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, last week. It is common courtesy and proper parliamentary procedure to involve the Opposition in announcements of this kind-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin:   -----and that we are alerted if announcements are going to be made by the Taoiseach on any issue, particularly on an issue pertaining to the amendment of the Constitution.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte:   Which you never did.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   That is proper procedure, and it is important that is adhered to in future because a tendency is developing where it is ruled by the Executive. This is an important issue. As the Taoiseach has outlined, it has involved all parties over quite some time. We want to adopt a constructive approach to the issue and I would have appreciated it if our spokespeople had been consulted earlier today in regard to this.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   If Deputies wish to raise this issue on the Order of Business they may do so. We have questions to the Taoiseach before that which I would like to go on to now.

The Taoiseach:   In response to Deputy Martin, the decision was only made at Cabinet today and finalised. I merely wanted to inform the House of the process of the briefing of party members - it is not the first time they have been briefed - and the procedure that will be followed.

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   If Deputies want to have conversations could they please have them outside the Chamber? We are on questions to the Taoiseach.

Discussions with EU Leaders

 1. Deputy Gerry Adams   asked the Taoiseach   the contacts that he has had with European leaders since the summer recess. [37878/12]

 2. Deputy Gerry Adams   asked the Taoiseach   the issues he will prioritise for the European Council meeting of 18 and 19 October. [37879/12]

 3. Deputy Gerry Adams   asked the Taoiseach   if he has been in contact with German Chancellor Angela Merkel since the Dáil went into recess. [37880/12]

 4. Deputy Micheál Martin   asked the Taoiseach   if he has met or spoken with Chancellor Merkel recently; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38800/12]

 5. Deputy Micheál Martin   asked the Taoiseach   his plans to visit European capitals prior to Ireland's presidency of the EU; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [38801/12]

 6. Deputy Joe Higgins   asked the Taoiseach   the European leaders with whom he has had discussions with since the summer recess. [38949/12]

 7. Deputy Joe Higgins   asked the Taoiseach   if he has submitted any proposals for the EU Summit taking place on the 18 to 19 October in Brussels; the issues he will prioritise; and if he has received an agenda. [38952/12]

 8. Deputy Micheál Martin   asked the Taoiseach   whether he has been contacted by Prime Minister Samaras to discuss developments in Greece; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39017/12]

 9. Deputy Micheál Martin   asked the Taoiseach   if he has had any discussions recently with President Hollande; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39027/12]

 10. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett   asked the Taoiseach   the EU leaders he intends to meet in the autumn and winter period; the issues he intends to raise; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39031/12]

 101. Deputy Micheál Martin   asked the Taoiseach   if he has spoken to Prime Minister Monti recently regarding developments in Italy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36945/12]

 102. Deputy Micheál Martin   asked the Taoiseach   if there is any informal EU Council meeting planned over the next two months; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [36946/12]

The Taoiseach:   I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 10, inclusive, and 101 and 102 together.

With regard to my recent contacts with other European Union leaders, I met with Slovenian Prime Minister Janez Janša in Government Buildings on Wednesday last. Our discussions focused on the euro crisis and the efforts under way to resolve it including proposals for progress towards banking union, the fiscal position in each of our countries and the challenges we face in reducing our budget deficit. We both welcomed the verdict of the Constitutional Court in Germany that morning, allowing the ESM, a vital part of the architecture for stability in Europe, to proceed. I also took the opportunity to brief the Prime Minister on our forthcoming Presidency.

In relation to my forthcoming plans for meetings with my European Council colleagues, I will meet with Prime Minister Monti in Rome on Friday morning next, where our discussions will focus on developments in the eurozone; banking issues, including those related to Irish bank debt; the multiannual financial framework; and the priorities and themes for the Irish Presidency. Arrangements are being finalised for meetings with other leaders who will also be present.

On Wednesday, 3 October, I will travel to Brussels with a number of my Cabinet colleagues for a meeting with President José Manuel Barroso and the College of Commissioners. The meeting will be focused in particular on Ireland's Presidency. Later that afternoon I will meet with European Council President, Herman van Rompuy. In addition to preparations for Ireland's EU Presidency, I will discuss with him the key issues that the European Council will address in the period ahead, especially his ongoing work on economic and monetary union, and prospects for agreement on the MFF.

I plan travel to Berlin in early November for a meeting with Chancellor Merkel. In addition, officials in my Department are making preparations for a visit to Paris to meet with President Hollande. Prime Minister Samaras has not been in contact with me over the course of the summer recess but I will see him and all my other European Union colleagues at the next meeting of the European Council on 18-19 October.

While the agenda for the October meeting has not been finalised, I expect that discussions will focus in particular on President Van Rompuy's interim report on strengthening economic and monetary union. Ireland has a vital national interest in ensuring a strong and stable currency and I will be engaging positively with colleagues to secure that outcome.

There are no informal European Councils planned for the next two months. However, an additional European Council meeting has now been convened for 22-23 November. It is expected that this meeting will focus on the multiannual financial framework and the Union's budget for the period 2014 to 2020.

Deputy Gerry Adams:   Táim buíoch as ucht an freagra. Perhaps the Taoiseach could help us in regard to media reports this morning. It is a habit that the Government thinks a lot through the media as opposed to the House. There are reports that the Government is considering issuing a 40-year bond to re-finance the bailout of Anglo Irish Bank. Has this been discussed with the European leaders with whom the Taoiseach has been in contact?

The Taoiseach stressed on a number of occasions the importance of the European Stability Mechanism, ESM, as part of the solution to the promissory note problem that Fianna Fáil left on the shoulders of Irish citizens. Has he encountered political opposition to the use of the ESM as a means of trying to deal with the bad-banking crisis? He may be aware that Chancellor Merkel was quoted as saying there is no change in respect of bank debt relief for Ireland. The quotation I have implies there is no change in her agenda at this time.

Earlier, the Taoiseach was saying he would be glad to hear Sinn Féin's constructive suggestions on health issues. I am very pleased to be able to say that what we have been arguing for from the outset, namely, the need to separate bank debt from sovereign debt, appears to have been taken on board by the Government. I welcome that. The Taoiseach says we are never constructive and that we never welcome what the Government does, but I welcome this initiative. It is a good approach but it is a pity it took the Government so long to get around to it.

A Government spokesperson said October is the deadline for working out an agreement. Can the Taoiseach confirm that this is still the deadline? Is progress achievable within the specified timeframe?

The Taoiseach:   The Government has always put forward the view that the negotiations, which are quite tortuous and very complex, are about restructuring and re-engineering the scale of debt placed on the backs of the Irish people. That has been the thrust of Government activity in this matter. The Deputy is aware that the decision of 29 June, into which Ireland was written, was to break the link between sovereign debt and bank debt. Many people said this could never happen. One should bear in mind, however, the progress the country has made in difficult times, the recognition of the scale of the burden on the Irish taxpayer since the blanket guarantee was given and the recognition of assistance for Ireland.

The view put forward by Commissioner Rehn is that the process should be concluded by the end of October. Clearly, the ongoing discussions in respect of Spain's borrowings for its banks and to deal with its deficit problem are not discussions over which we in Ireland have control. The important point is that the conclusion must involve the right and best deal for Ireland's economy and people. I am more concerned about that than adhering to the deadline that was mentioned as a target by Commissioner Rehn. I pointed out some time ago that there would be some slippage from that.

The Deputy is aware that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, was in Paris, Rome and Berlin last week prior to the informal meeting in Cyprus and that good progress was reported in that regard.

I will not comment on headlines in the newspapers about different ways of dealing with this; suffice it to say that the focus of the discussions, which are tortuous and very complex, is on the restructuring and re-engineering of debt such that it can be lessened for the people, including the taxpayer. It is a case of getting the very best deal for the people and not just a question of adhering to an intended target date that may not result in the best deal that could eventually be on offer.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   I have approximately five questions on this issue and the Taoiseach covered them all in his opening reply. Over recent months, there seem to have been very intense discussions taking place across Europe on actions to tackle the eurozone debt crisis. Prime Ministers have been crisscrossing the Continent holding meetings to promote their national positions and to seek agreement. It seems the Taoiseach is opting out of this role in regard to Ireland's national position on bank debt. It seems from his reply that he has not had any substantive meeting with any key player who matters regarding the bank crisis or bank debt issue and the separation of bank debt from sovereign debt since the June summit. It seems once again that the Government, particularly the Taoiseach, is sitting back and hoping something will fall into its lap such that we can claim a negotiating victory. We know this happened in June with Prime Ministers Monti and Rahoy forcing Chancellor Merkel's hand at the time. To a certain extent, we are beginning to hear her resiling from the June agreement or at least procrastinate with regard to the implementation of that agreement, which the Tánaiste described as a game changer.

The Taoiseach stated he does not want to comment on the headlines in the newspapers. With the greatest respect, they are his headlines. There has been spin. Ministers have been talking to the media and that is what is giving rise to the headlines. We need a little honesty about what is happening.

A restructuring of the promissory note is not actually a separation of sovereign debt and banking debt; rather, it is a cash-flow operation. It is beneficial if one pushes it out far enough but there is no actual separation. Ultimately, it falls on the sovereign to pay.

Deputy Peter Mathews:   It changes the creditors.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Yes, but it is not in line with the principle as agreed in June. We do not seem to have any sense of movement in this regard.

Deputy Adams asked the Taoiseach about Chancellor Merkel's comment, as reported today, that she will not countenance any change for quite some time and her statement that Greece and Spain are her highest priority. I refer also to the comment that the banking union issue takes precedence over any discussion on the separation of sovereign debt from bank debt. The Taoiseach needs to comment on the headline this morning and to offer clarity to the House on the promissory note issue. He needs to refer to the utilisation of the ESM in respect of Allied Irish Banks, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB. It is time that the House and public heard a more honest debate about these issues. People are at sixes and sevens with all the different messages coming from the Government and the newspaper headlines. There is incoherence, kite flying and serial leaks. It is a case of every Minister for himself and of Ministers saying what is on their minds and what is happening in the latest chapter. It is disingenuous and not good enough for the Taoiseach to say he will not comment on a newspaper headline when it was authored by him or his colleagues. The Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, should not be shaking his head because the position on the headlines is obvious. We were told last week we were making great progress; this week we are told something else and next week there will be something else. We need to respect this House and have a genuine debate here on the issues and what is occurring in the negotiations.

Deputy Peter Mathews:   The open and honest debate is missing in Europe, France, Spain and Germany.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   I accept that.

The Taoiseach:   The Deputy's mantra is that I should be travelling to Europe to meet all the leaders on a daily basis. He states I do not meet any of the key players. He understands, however, that all the key players came together on 29 June. The decision was made in the preparations for that meeting and in the meeting itself. Ireland is written into that decision and is one of only two countries mentioned therein.

Deputy Peter Mathews:   Thanks to the efforts of the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach:   The key players were around the table.

(Speaker Continuing)

[The Taoiseach:  ] Since the markets reacted positively to the 29 June agreement, a factor, I am sure, in the capacity of the NTMA to return to the treasury bill and bond markets in July and last week, and on which platform the Minister for Finance and his officials have sought to build, with a degree of success, I might say, there have been intensive discussions between the officials of the Department of Finance and their counterparts abroad. They have had meetings in Paris, Berlin, Helsinki, Rome and The Hague and have had lots of conversations about specific issues from here to there.

The discussions with the troika, especially with the ECB, on replacing the promissory note have been ongoing for over a year. We had some success in the settling of the 31 March 2012 payment under a long-term Government bond. The direct recapitalisation of Irish banks is clearly and directly linked to developments in Spain and is contingent on the establishment of a single European banking supervisor. The proposals for that, as Deputy Martin knows, were presented by the European Commission just last week.

Those intensive discussions between the officials and their counterparts were followed up last week by the Minister, Deputy Noonan. He has given his progress report on that, which was accepted generally as being satisfactory given that these are very complex issues. There were also statements and comments by the ECB, the IMF and the Commission on the progress this country has made in restoring order to the public finances, in restructuring the banking system and in delivering on more than 120 measures in the EU-IMF programme. This has been recognised as a real strength, although a challenge for us here, in our negotiations on the banking debt.

The question of dealing with the promissory note and the requirement to pay €3.1 billion each March is an issue that is central to these discussions. As the Minister, Deputy Noonan, pointed out on Saturday, there is strong political support for dealing with that problem in respect of Ireland. It is how one deals with it that is the question. It would obviously have beneficial implications for Ireland and our debt level if a way could be found to deal with it that was satisfactory.

I do not really deal in speculation about deadlines. I can echo for the Deputy the comments by the ECB on Friday last, namely, that negotiators are under heavy time pressure, as they called it. I would like to think that the end of October target date could be met but, frankly, I do not see that as a reality. As I told Deputy Adams, I am far more concerned with getting the maximum deal for the taxpayer and the country in the negotiations that are ongoing. As I said clearly, Spain is an issue there. What the Spanish negotiators are doing is obviously an issue that has a direct bearing on us here also.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   May I ask a supplementary question?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle:   I will revert to the Deputy.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   When in her post-summer press conference the German Chancellor stated that no changes were necessary to the Irish bailout austerity agenda, which, in case we forget, sees working people and the poor salvaging the financial market speculators in Europe, and that everything - the cuts, the crisis and the hundreds of thousands of people who are unemployed - was fine with Ireland, what did she mean? During the general election campaign, the current Taoiseach rushed over to Berlin to be at Chancellor Merkel's side. He sought security, a profile and gravitas in her shadow. Is it not the truth that she has stabbed him in the back and that she has told the real truth and the real thinking of the European elite with regard to the Irish austerity bailout agenda, namely, that the Irish people will continue being forced to pay? Is it not the truth that the Taoiseach has tried to string along the Irish people with fairy tales about miracles emanating from Europe regarding the millstone of debt created by bankers and speculators that our people are forced to carry? How does the seismic shift of which the Taoiseach spoke in June with regard to debt now stand in view of Chancellor Merkel's statement to the effect that Ireland does not need changes, even as another €1 billion goes to the AIB bondholders on 1 October?

The Taoiseach must comment on the claim made by the media today to the effect that the Government is contemplating the stringing out of this massive burden of debt over 40 years, in particular to pay off the Anglo Irish Bank gamblers and others. Is this the truth? Is the Taoiseach prepared to condemn not only the children of this nation or their children, but also their children's children to carry this millstone of debt for which they bear no responsibility? Is it not true that the Taoiseach's claims about major changes that would alleviate the totally unjustified debt burden on the Irish people have been exposed as a sham, given the German Chancellor's statement?

The Taoiseach:   No, it is not. The German Chancellor agreed with and was very supportive of the European Council decision on 29 June. The commitment by the Heads of State and Government on 29 June stated: "to examine the situation of the Irish financial sector with a view to enhancing the sustainability of the well-performing programme". As I said to Deputy Martin, the focus of the discussions that have been and are taking place here and the focus of the political interaction that has taken and will take place are on how best we can restructure and re-engineer the level of debt placed on the Irish taxpayer and get the maximum benefit and result from that in the interest of the country's people. Those discussions centre around how best that can be done.

I have read comments and seen speculation about what is under discussion. I do not deal in speculation, to be frank with Deputy Higgins. I much prefer to have clarity about results that are in our people's interests. It is true to say a range of issues and proposals have been and are being considered as to how best that level of debt should be re-engineered and restructured.

In so far as the Heads of Government are concerned, everyone signed off on that agreement. Many people thought that comment or statement by the Heads of Government could never be achieved. We now have to build on that. As I pointed out to other Deputies, meetings have taken place at an intensive level between Department of Finance officials and their counterparts in a range of European capitals. When I meet Prime Minister Monti, President Hollande and a number of other leaders this weekend - details of meetings are being finalised - this obviously will be a focus of our talks at Heads of Government level. What we are interested in, as I am sure Deputy Higgins is as well, is getting the best deal possible for our people. That has been and will be the continuing focus of our discussions and negotiations.

There is strong political support for implementing this decision of the Council. I would like to think it would be implemented as soon as possible in everybody's interest, but it is to get the best result for everybody.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   What sort of formal proposals?

The Taoiseach:   These are not fairy tales.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:   Last week, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, which was set up as part of the troika deal, warned that growth forecasts had been consistently off and overly optimistic and that unless growth targets were met - it is looking highly like that they will not be met - our debt would become unsustainable.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:  ] That is what the Fiscal Advisory Council, not the left or the Opposition, is indicating. It has warned that all the growth projections so far have been wrong, and all the dangers are on the down side.

Against the background is the question of us getting some relief on the debt, which is absolutely urgent as it will become unsustainable otherwise. Over the summer months the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance have intimated there might be some progress on the debt issue but last week German Chancellor Angela Merkel put that to bed and said we would get nothing. She indicated there is no envisaged change and none is necessary. She set out her stall. The only idea those people seem to be concerned with is that we continue to impose austerity and even if there is a restructuring of the debt, it would be conditional on further austerity. We are either in the grips of the loan sharks in the troika and their demands for austerity or the requirements of the markets to impose austerity.

Is there any choice for the people in the country that would give relief from austerity? Is the Taoiseach pursuing any deal on the debt that will allow him to say, in the upcoming budget in December or the following budget, that people will endure less pain or austerity? Will the Taoiseach comment on the fact that, in its report, the Fiscal Advisory Council indicated that three quarters of the way through next year this country will not be spending more than it can afford, with the entire basis of the deficit being interest on debt? Is it an acceptable choice that in 2013, we are saying it is more important to pay bondholders and satisfy the loan sharks of the international markets while subjecting the people of this country, who simply cannot take any more, to further cuts and austerity?

The Taoiseach:   Everybody agrees that the quicker this can be done, the better, but it is not as simple as the Deputy pretends. Other European leaders now recognise that the challenge facing us is being met by the Government and its people. The position is challenging and many people have suffered as a consequence. Nobody will walk in here and write a cheque for €13 billion to sort out the problem.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:   We have to write a cheque for bondholders.

The Taoiseach:   This is a problem we must deal with ourselves. The discussions which are taking place are focused on bringing a conclusion to the decision of the Heads of Government, including Chancellor Merkel, on 29 June. I do not want this country to see any pretensions about a second bailout. We want out of this bailout as quickly as we can so we can fly economically and run our country as efficiently as I know is possible. The promissory note issue, which has been there a while, means there is a requirement to pay €3.1 billion every year for ten years. The Deputy did not cause that but we must deal with it. It is a central focus for many discussions and the Deputy should believe me when I say it is not as simple as he pretends when he says we should wipe it out or change it in a way to bring the best financial benefit for Ireland.

Commentators got it wrong about Ireland's growth rate and the extent of our economy. Growth figures depend on a range of issues, and it is very difficult to predict what they can be for an exporting nation when other countries in Europe have a range of difficulties. The Deputy is aware of other countries either in programmes or on the verge of them because of difficulties. That has an impact on our capacity for export, as many of these countries buy what we produce.

I understand the Fiscal Advisory Council put forward even tougher measures that would see us emerge from the bailout programme more quickly than the Government proposes. The single most important element of the Government's action in 2013, working with its people, is to produce a budget that will meet our targets and have a direct impact on the fact that we borrow at 5% above the German rate. As a consequence, this economy is capital-starved. Until we can deal with that yield, it will be difficult for banks to borrow on the markets and it is less attractive for investment to flow here. These are external and international factors on which we must work, and this does not in any way take away from the fact that there is a series of very difficult challenges to deal with at home.

I look forward to the Deputy's contributions on how this can be rectified, and I do not want any hallucinations on how he might think it would happen. There are some challenging times ahead and the Government will make its decisions collectively, in the fairest and most equitable way possible. We are three quarters of the way across this river and it behoves everybody in the country to focus on what we can do to pull on the rope and get us back to economic independence and sovereignty. That will help us move on to implement a programme where people can have confidence, strength will return to our economy and opportunities for jobs and careers will filter through. Such action is not always as easy as it sounds but it is the case that we must face up to that challenge with courage.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   The Taoiseach is spinning more fairy tales.

The Taoiseach:   In our international negotiations we will continue to focus on getting the best deal, with the maximum benefit for our people. Even if it takes a little longer than what was originally targeted, I hope the process will be worth it on its conclusion.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   The Taoiseach mentioned hallucinations in referring to other Deputies but it was his own party and the Labour Party that dramatically raised expectations before the last election. It was said that bondholders would be burned and such reckless comments were made during the election; the year and a half since has been a long journey but it is extraordinary for the Taoiseach to use a phrase such as "things are not as easy as they sound". We heard "Labour's way or Frankfurt's way" as a rallying clarion call some time ago. The Taoiseach has since accepted that Europe did not have the right policies at the outset of the crisis and the ECB did not deal with the issue as decisively and effectively as it could have. It imposed debts on Ireland through promissory notes that were unfair. We have a moral basis for renegotiating these as much as anything else.

Mr. Mario Draghi has been a very effective Governor of the European Central Bank and some of his action has had a dramatic impact on the markets. He has a more elastic interpretation of his remit and mandate, which has been positive and had the single greatest impact on market confidence in the eurozone's capacity to emerge from this crisis. We are not there yet. Will the Taoiseach facilitate debate on this in the House? In an earlier phase of this debate there was a famous technical paper going around that involved the Cabinet and representatives of the troika. That seems to have disappeared into the ether. Did that technical paper ever exist and could it be published or at least furnished to Members of the Houses so we can see what scenarios are being worked through with regard to debt sustainability?

There are a number of questions relating to the banking union.

(Speaker Continuing)

[Deputy Micheál Martin:  ] What is our position on it? With regard to the regulating and governing role of the ECB, are we in favour of a union that involves all banks or do we support the German position which wants to limit it to 20 major systemic banks or approximately 200 banks? What is the position of the Taoiseach and the Government on the banking union and the extent of the remit of the ECB in terms of regulating the banks?

Has Ireland prepared a position paper on the treaty changes which have been raised by other leaders? It was floated by Chancellor Angela Merkel. Will we again sit back and wait for new treaty papers to arrive and another treaty proposition will come before the people in the form of a referendum? The big debate in Europe has been on the German position, which wants countries to sort out their own fiscal situation first, then wants the regulatory situation sorted and was very reluctant, as we know, to go along with developing the role of the ECB as a lender of last resort or for buying bonds. The June summit represented a shift in this debate when Prime Ministers Mariano Rajoy and Mario Monti put it to the German Chancellor that something had to give. This issue has dragged on and now it seems we are getting a very slow play out of the June decision with the Germans stating they want the banking union first before they go down the route of separating sovereign debt from banking debt. The issue is dragging on again. This is why I believe the Taoiseach should be on the diplomatic circuit. He should meet other leaders. Will Mr. Rajoy submit to a programme and what is happening on this front? These issues are grave and I believe we have a strong enough moral position to argue for a genuine deal on it and it has the support of everybody in the House.

The Taoiseach:   I heard one of Deputy Martin's Deputies state after the collective assertion of their position this week that they were off the leash.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   We were in a modest location. There was no Carton House for us.

The Taoiseach:   The repayment of €3.1 billion every year for ten years is what is at stake. It is true to state Mr. Draghi has had a very fresh approach towards the ECB and in how he views the European Union. Ms Lagarde has been very supportive of Ireland as has Commissioner Rehn, the German Minister for Finance, Mr. Schaeuble, and Mr. Rasmussen. The focus is on putting all this goodwill and translating it into negotiations that would bring a result for us.

Deputy Martin asked about the banking union. We welcome progress towards a euro area banking union but everybody recognises that as we have 6,000 banks here it is a complex undertaking. However, I must state there is a realisation that work must proceed as quickly as possible. The new arrangements are supposed to be in place by 1 January next year.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   What is the Taoiseach's position?

The Taoiseach:   We welcome progress towards a European banking union. It is highly ambitious.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Does the Taoiseach support the Commission's view or the German view?

The Taoiseach:   We will continue to make this an issue when we assume the Presidency and building shared supervision at EU level is a crucial step towards what was decided at the June European Council meeting. The Commission has also proposed a phased approach to the single supervisory mechanism to be in place by 1 January. We believe this should be considered urgently and, significantly, when it is established it will open the way for the ESM to be used to recapitalise banks directly.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Does the Taoiseach want all banks to be supervised?

The Taoiseach:   Deputy Martin asked whether a paper was prepared on treaty changes. No paper will be prepared on treaty changes until these matters are finalised to see in what eventuality a treaty change might have to take place.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Is the Taoiseach in favour of the Commission's position that all banks be supervised by the ECB or of the German position?

The Taoiseach:   All banks.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   What about the technical paper between the troika and the Government? Does the Taoiseach remember the famous technical paper?

The Taoiseach:   Yes.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   The Taoiseach got approximately six months out of it on Leaders' Questions.

The Taoiseach:   Yes, we have moved beyond it.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   So it has disappeared.

The Taoiseach:   We have moved well beyond it.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   The Taoiseach is one of the best at spinning. He got half a year out of that technical paper which never existed.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan:   Nobody can beat your good self.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Was it shredded?

The Taoiseach:   I certainly cannot find anything on the other one.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   With regard to the banking debt and the European Union, I recall a movie from a long time ago called "The Secret Life of Words". Do these words have some secret meaning that I miss? The Taoiseach quoted them. He obtained a commitment in June to examine the situation of the Irish financial sector with a view of further improving the sustainability of the wealth performing adjustment programme. That is it. Would the Taoiseach agree that calling it a seismic shift is investing in very simple words meanings that have no relation to the reality and that his credibility has been badly undermined by Chancellor Merkel? What have the European Union leaders been saying to him concretely as he and the Minister for Finance have been lobbying them in this regard?

Has the Taoiseach read the state of the union address by the President of the Commission, José Manuel Barroso? He called for a more liberalised Europe with more austerity and more flexibility, in order words workers must give more and more to meet the demands of the markets. Does the Taoiseach agree with this? Does the Taoiseach agree with President Barroso's call for more privatisation, which he has been driving for some time? Does the Taoiseach agree with his call for a Europe that is capable of deploying military missions, in other words a militarised union? Does the Taoiseach agree with him when he calls for a federation of Europe, in other words a mirror image of imperialist United States of America, a Europe which can wave a big stick or armaments over poor people throughout the world to get its way? Is this the Taoiseach's vision as well as that of the European elite? Will the Taoiseach explain how in any sense this could mean a better world for the 25 million or 27 million of our people throughout Europe who are unemployed at present and for those who are suffering under the disastrous travails of austerity and the dictatorship of the bond markets and speculators? Is the Taoiseach at one with Mr. Barroso on this?

The Taoiseach:   In all of the comments Mr. Barroso has made in my listening to him at many meetings he has always been careful to distinguish between the role, responsibilities and policies of various countries. He has always singled out this country as a small country making headway in difficult times. His understanding of Ireland's position in so far as other countries are concerned with regard to membership of NATO and their views on the bigger issues of military connections throughout the world is very clear. With regard to these discussions, Deputy Higgins is aware that we receive emergency liquidity on an almost weekly basis and this cannot be translated into long-term finance. This is an issue for serious consideration by the Minister for Finance and his officials and others. What happened as referred to was a seismic shift because very few people who think they know all these things will have contemplated that the Heads of Government at European Council level would make a decision to break the link between sovereign and bank debt.

(Speaker Continuing)

[The Taoiseach:  ] All of those who comment on these things never foresaw that this country would be written into the decision. The reason for that was, in part, because of the decision made by the Irish people, which the Deputy opposed, in respect of the fiscal stability treaty that strengthened the hand of our country and our negotiators in building trust with our colleagues and in having the support, which I outlined to Deputy Martin, of so many influential leaders and so many persons involved in positions of influence to deal with our particular problem. Our problem, of course, is that when the decision was made a number of years ago, we were burdened, unprecedentedly for a country in Europe, with a savage imposition and it is that problem which we need to deal with and why it is in the decision of 29 June. That is why it was a seismic shift for European countries and why the requirement of Italy to roll over billions every month and why the issues being debated and considered in respect of Spain and its enormous economy have a direct impact on Ireland.

Let me repeat that the thrust of the questions asked was, what are we doing about it? Our intention is focused on getting the best and maximum deal for our people and our country and while I would like to think it might be able to be adhered to by the end of October, frankly, I do not think that will be kept. My priority is to get the very best deal for our people, which I am sure Deputy Higgins will welcome when it is concluded.

From that point of view, these discussions will continue this weekend when I meet with a number of leaders, as I outlined to other Deputies, and apace with the officials from the Department of Finance and their counterparts in quite a number of countries. The goodwill and the support is there politically. It is there from the influencers in the Commission and the European Central Bank. Translating that goodwill into reality for our people is our focus and that is where we will continue to keep our priority.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:   I do not know if Dr. Angela Merkel and EU leaders are making a fool of the Taoiseach or he is making a fool of the people of this country.

Deputy Micheál Martin:   Both.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:   Someone is leading the people of this country on a merry dance where we are told there are negotiations and discussions that may lead to something and there are hopes of relief, but nothing materialises. Meanwhile the hammer of austerity falls again. People in this country are quaking in their shoes at the prospect of what may be done to them in the budget in December. The Taoiseach should not underestimate the fear and anxiety out there. He must know it. In the face of that, Dr. Angela Merkel said we are getting nothing. Are these negotiations, which the Taoiseach said he is pursuing, going to bring any relief to the public who are terrified about further austerity?

Does the Taoiseach think it is acceptable, given that Europe and Dr. Merkel are giving us nothing and that we are getting diddly-squat from Europe in terms of debt relief, that we are still going to allow €1 billion to be paid out to unsecured Allied Irish Banks bondholders on 1 October? Does he think our negotiating strategy is working? Does he not think it is time to get tough and say that if they do not give us something that will give relief to the people of this country who have suffered enough, we are not going to pay off these unsecured and unguaranteed bondholders on 1 October?

The Taoiseach:   The Deputy misses the point completely. I do not know where he was all summer. He should understand that we do not hold the cheque book here. We are in a bailout programme.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett:   Unsecured and unguaranteed bondholders-----

The Taoiseach:   The Cabinet cannot just make decisions for developments here and there because we are getting emergency liquidity assistance. The Deputy does not seem to realise that is the case and that our country is in a bailout position. As a republic, we do not have our economic independence. Our ambition is to get that back as quickly as possible. The European Central Bank, which supplies this country with money, has said we will not burn the senior bondholders and most of that money has been paid off. However, there is a recognition from the ECB, the Commission and the IMF that Ireland shouldered an enormous burden in the way this was done a number of years ago. Our job is to try to restructure and re-engineer that with benefits for everybody but it is not a simple as the Deputy pretends, that one can just bang the table and it happens.

When one sits around with 26 other leaders, or 16 as in the case of the eurozone, they all have their problems. Some of them are in bailout programmes too but, unfortunately, we were first out in this way so it is a case of continuing to negotiate very hard in the interests of the people and relieving and restructuring that level of debt that is on our people.

The Deputy says we are not getting anything. We do not control this because we are not economically independent but through our Minister for Finance and our Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform we renegotiated very substantial elements of the troika programme, not least of which was being able to say that when the Government decides to dispose of State assets for best result, that money can be invested in job creation and sustainable programmes for our people. That was not the case previously when it was all to go to debt reduction. There have been a whole series of those renegotiations.

The Deputy should not disregard the goodwill of other governments and other leaders which has been brought about by a sense of their understanding that Ireland, in a difficult position, has made serious progress. We want to continue that progress. As I said, we are three quarters of the way across the river. We have drawn down more than three quarters of the moneys to be allocated under that programme. The way ahead is challenging but the prize is enormous for our people and our country. That is why in the course of the discussions between now and the next ten weeks, I will be interested to hear what the Deputy has to say about what can be done realistically and not his airy-fairy economics that suddenly one can go home and say this is all sorted out.

Deputy Joe Higgins:   It is the Taoiseach who is airy-fairy.

Deputy Peter Mathews:   My question will follow a few observations that are extremely important. I sense the tension from our leader on the Government side and from the Opposition side. I sense a tension that is playing itself out in the other parliaments of Europe and I sense that over the past number of years Europe has been ruled by powerful vested interests and - I will use a word we all understand - bullies, but no one of stature and courage has stood up to challenge this undemocratic power.

I will pass around to Members a link to a website in which MIT Professor Johnston revealed that one of the world's largest banks, Deutsche Bank, with a €2.2 trillion balance sheet, is far shakier than realised to date. What these people who run these banks around the world, and who are paid multiple times what the leaders of countries and parliaments are paid, are doing to control and manipulate the flows of finance and capital around the markets of the world, which is frightening the leaders of democratically elected governments, is wrong and we have to stand up to it.